Starting over...who are the untouchables?

It's easy to understand, but I don't think a lot of fans have adjusted to the current level of offensive production, relative to a few years ago.
 
57Brave said:
Good point - let me add, if Simba were traded the pitchers would show up at the new GM's office with pitchforks tar,feathers and a rail.

Ozzie Smith was traded from San Diego because it was thought he couldn't hit. For Gary Templeton who could hit and wasnt a bad SS either. But I'd bet everyone who posts here knows who Ozzie isd. Some see the name Gay Templeton for the first time. Simba is more player than Ozzie. Or let me rephrase, I'd be surprised if at the end of Simba's career he isn't considered more player.

Ozzie Smith was the real ****
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Two things about Ozzie though. isoOBP of .075 and 580 SBs (only 19 less SBs than Ks for his career). Simmons is one HR short of Ozzie's HR total for his 19-year career, but his isoOBP is .045 and has 11 SBs in 2 and 1/2 seasons. Outside of the glove, they are totally different players. Everyone here know I don't worship the walk, but Ozzie figured out what he could and couldn't do with a bat in his hands and adjusted his game accordingly to take advantage of what offensive tools/skills he had. Simmons needs to do the same thing. Simmons is kind of in the "show me" phase of his career offensively.

I think Enscheff's point is valid. You can't have as many black holes as we had this season and expect to be a good team offensively. Simmons is the best of the offensive under-performers and so it would take more to pry him away, but I can envision a scenario in which he was traded. The return would have to be pretty healthy, but he may be the most marketable player who would bring the greatest net return of anyone on the team right now.
 
Exactly. With Gattis out the team currently has a .300ish OBP or worse at C, SS, CF, and 3B. That's half of the lineup being absolutely terrible.

Two of those spots in the lineup must be fixed this offseason if this team is going to have any at winning next year. The easiest solutions are:

CF - slide Heyward to CF and acquire an offensively competent OFer
C - start Gattis the majority (60%) of the time, and don't be shy about PHing for CB when he starts
3B - acquire a LHed option at 3B to reduce CJ's exposure to RHed pitching, and do a better job PHing for him in crucial spots
SS - PH for Simmons late in games more often as appropriate

As you can see, much of the poor offensive production can be "fixed" by better utilizing the bench assets. Only one everyday OFer and a good LHed bench bat that can play 3B really needs to be acquired.

Well, that plus some starting pitching.
 
I'd like to unload BJ and move Heyward to CF and pick up Reddick for RF while he is cheap. I think a change would be great for him and, like Heyward, he is fantastic in RF. Neither can hit lefties, so our 4th outfielder would need to be someone capable of handling lefties without hurting the defense. Someone like Aaron Hicks or Desmond Jennings.
 
yeezus said:
I am shocked at how much people here value CB.
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They're buying into the hype surrounding him, if they'd been watching him play much in the minors they'd not be surprised by his slow start with us on both offense and defense. He is very talented but he also seems stubborn and maybe a bit lazy at times. I am leaning towards the trade him this off season side because his value to us could be more in a trade, IMO.
 
Gattis could bring more value than CB imo. Gattis has established 2 20hr seasons already and would be the perfect full time DH/back up catcher.

That's worth much more than CB's hype ceiling. And Gattis is just as cheap as CB right now.
 
This offense is bad enough WITH Gattis. We should focus on CF, 2B, the bench, and someone to complement CJ at third (vs RHP).
 
zitothebrave said:
He has a sick ceiling. If he hits like he did in AA and AAA he's a well above average MLB C. He'd basically be a Salvadore Perez type of C. ANd there's a ton of value in that.
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BJ#1FAN said:
Gattis could bring more value than CB imo. Gattis has established 2 20hr seasons already and would be the perfect full time DH/back up catcher.

That's worth much more than CB's hype ceiling. And Gattis is just as cheap as CB right now.
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I don't see a team offering us enough to replace what Gattis brings to our offense. We need to improve our offense but adding Bethancourt to it as our starting catcher makes it a lot worse combined with removing Gattis from the line-up. The league will eat CB up regularly when they realize how similar to CJ he is at chasing pitches. Not that we haven't seen that a bit early on, I am just saying to expect more of the same.
 
Dalyn said:
This offense is bad enough WITH Gattis. We should focus on CF, 2B, the bench, and someone to complement CJ at third (vs RHP).
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I agree pretty much but my focus on improving it includes removing both BJ and CJ from the team while fixing the bench, etc.

PS Fixing the bench means little if Fredi stays as he won't use them enough, etc.
 
Braves1976 said:
I agree pretty much but my focus on improving it includes removing both BJ and CJ from the team while fixing the bench, etc.

PS Fixing the bench means little if Fredi stays as he won't use them enough, etc.
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Removing CJ completely is dumb. The guy destroys lefties, something that is often a weakness for the Braves.
 
Dalyn said:
Removing CJ completely is dumb. The guy destroys lefties, something that is often a weakness for the Braves.
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Nah, what he brings vs lefties is just not enough given what he costs us vs righties and on defense. But I would like to keep Bonifacio around to platoon at multiple positions as he has hit lefties well for a lot longer than CJ who interestingly had trouble with lefties in the past before coming here. Plus Bonifacio brings a speed element that is useful in a platoon/bench player too.

PS I also can only handle one double play machine in the line-up and I'll take Simmons given the premium defense he provides at position defense is so key.
 
clvclv said:
You can't look at that in current dollars. GMs of small and mid-market teams don't have the luxury of budgeting from one year to the next.

Wren rolled the dice on Freeman/Teheran/Simmons/Kimbrel as the "cornerstones". Their salaries increase substantially with each passing year. A mid-market franchise with $28 million of dead money (Uggla and B.J.) on the 2015 books can't possibly commit another $35-$40 million to Heyward and J-Up given the lack of inexpensive IMPACT pitching we currently face. If you extend either of them at this point, Santana leaves and your #3 SP is David Hale. If this season is what you should reasonably expect out of the 4 guys you're already committed to going forward, you're going nowhere by giving Santana's money to Justin and Uggla's money to Heyward. For the first time in a LONG time, we have no impact SPs on the horizon - they're already in Atlanta.
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Been discussed before.

With the new stadium, we have more money than people realize.

Not saying we'll have a LAD/NYY level payroll but they have enough money for Heyward and JUp, whether both would re-sign is a different story.

And did Minor die or something, he's the #3 starter heading into next year unless i missed something.
 
mfree80 said:
FEARLESS PREDICTION. If we trade Hayward, we will regret it big time. At the level he has been the past few years he is a really good player and an important part of the lineup. When he turns the corner, and I believe he will, he is a top 10 player in baseball... not to mention a fan favorite.

Trading him would be invoking the wrath of the baseball gods. :eusa_naughty:
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Heyward is my favorite player on the team but if they offer him an extension, and he declines, then they should trade him.

Not like we're winning a WS next year (let's be realistic here)

Or do you keep him, let him walk for a measly compensation pick?
 
Re: Gattis/CB.

Reason i'd trade Gattis over CB.

He'd bring back more in a trade.

I worry about his health.

His defense sucks.

CB might bring more in a trade but who catches when Gattis goes down and CB is gone?

Not saying CB is Yadi-Molina but not like he cant improve over time.
 
I do not understand the total love for Heyward here. He is hitting right now .271 which is 9 points higher than his career average. Sure he is a great defensive player, but as a corner outfielder hitting a lifetime .262 with 20 HR and 70 average per year he is a far cry from an elite player. Bethancourt has shown me little in the way of offense or defense for that matter in his time up so far this year. To replace Gattis with him would be a huge mistake, I would trade CB long before I trade Gattis, remember this was only Gattis' first year as a starting catcher, he will improve defensively, and his offensive capabilities are way beyond what Bethancourt will ever show.
Ad far as starters the only 2 I would consider keepers are Teheran and Wood, Minor should be trade bait along with the entire outfield and 3b. I do not consider LaStella to be a major league starter, nor do I see Gosselin in that role either which means 2b needs to be addressed unless Peraza is all that some people think he is. Peraza would need to be a leadoff hitter and play 2b, is his lack of power any better than La Stella? He has a little more speed but his stolen base numbers are nothing to get excited about. I am not sure he is what is needed either, he has only played 44 games at AA.
Call me pessimistic but I see little in the Braves minor leagues system that reassures me we can right the ship quickly unless some great trades are made or free agent signings, which given the budget restraints will be tough.
 
Braves1976 said:
Nah, what he brings vs lefties is just not enough given what he costs us vs righties and on defense.
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That's why I said find someone to platoon with him. And what he bring vs lefties is insanely good: .393 .436 .542 .978 - You can't just replace that.
 
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