What was the stupidest thing the three Johns did?

[Hawk]

'Finding a way to make them like it' is creating a market. Especially when there is a bigger market that already exists elsewhere.

You are assuming there is an untapped market there. That isn't necessarily the case, and there exists years of data to show that it isn't.

15 miles down the road. Come on now.

It's not really a particularly large assumption to believe that a city with one of the largest black populations percentages in the nation, in a state with one of the largest black population percentages in the nation, has untapped marketing potential to a business that doesn't really attract many blacks.

The Braves could be like the ****ing iPhone in China!

 

[Julio3000]

Remember that quote from the Cobb County bigwig you posted immediately after the plans were announced?

"It is absolutely necessary the (transportation) solution is all about moving cars in and around Cobb and surrounding counties from our north and east where most Braves fans travel from, and not moving people into Cobb by rail from Atlanta."

Hard not to read that as (very thinly) coded language.

EDIT: Actually, Meta posted that, not Julio. Sorry, all you internet people look the same to me.

Ha, nice.

the (transportation) solution is all about moving cars in and around Cobb and surrounding counties from our north and east

This just slays me. Anyone who calls "moving cars" a transportation solution is . . . just . . . ugh.

 

[smootness]

15 miles down the road. Come on now.

It's not really a particularly large assumption to believe that a city with one of the largest black populations percentages in the nation, in a state with one of the largest black population percentages in the nation, has untapped marketing potential to a business that doesn't really attract many blacks.

The Braves could be like the ****ing iPhone in China!

You think a business would choose to put itself inside a market that has traditionally not been a consumer of the product (though it has been available) because they see it as untapped potential? You're insane.

Using your example, if the iPhone does, or would, attract people in China but the product is simply not available, that is an untapped market. If the iPhone has been available in China but hasn't sold well, you don't go buy a bunch of Apple stores in China.

What you're suggesting is the classic case of 'putting good money after bad'.

Put it this way - if there were no baseball team in Atlanta, and whites traditionally flock to baseball more than blacks, would you really seek Atlanta as the city to out your new team because of 'untapped potential'? Of course not.

I'm going to sell mini-skirts in Saudi Arabia. Since they don't traditionally buy (and actively hate) mini-skirts....untapped potential!

 

[chop2chip]

As a fan that lives across the country who will attend maybe one Braves home game in his lifetime and doesn't have to pay the public taxes to pay for the stadium, I am all for the move.

It increases the value of the franchise tremendously and will undoubtedly create new revenue streams that didn't exist at Turner. I'm sorry that it's an inconvenience to Atlanta based fans, but a business stand point it makes a lot of sense.

I also don't have a lot of sympathy for Atlanta. The sparsely attended playoff games I saw from my youth embarrassed the fan base. Perhaps, the fans in Cobb County will treat the team better than the city of Atlanta ever did.

 

[Hawk]

You think a business would choose to put itself inside a market that has traditionally not been a consumer of the product (though it has been available) because they see it as untapped potential? You're insane.

Using your example, if the iPhone does, or would, attract people in China but the product is simply not available, that is an untapped market. If the iPhone has been available in China but hasn't sold well, you don't go buy a bunch of Apple stores in China.

What you're suggesting is the classic case of 'putting good money after bad'.

Put it this way - if there were no baseball team in Atlanta, and whites traditionally flock to baseball more than blacks, would you really seek Atlanta as the city to out your new team because of 'untapped potential'? Of course not.

I'm going to sell mini-skirts in Saudi Arabia. Since they don't traditionally buy (and actively hate) mini-skirts....untapped potential!

Actually, the iPhone wasn't in China because of government restrictions. But the black (no pun intended) market was HUGE and immensely profitable. Also, because for some weird reason, for many years, Asians tended to prefer flip phones (and still do in Japan).

Did Apple give up on the market? No, they lobbied and advertised and waited -- because they realized that, despite the costs and the uphill battle, winning China was the promised land.

It's the same reason why Google tried to get into China for years and years.

Have you bothered to try and figure out why African Americans might not be flocking out in droves to attend MLB games? Maybe it's a residual effect from the lack of black players in the league in the 80s/early 90s. Maybe it's the lack of baseball diamonds in inner-cities. Maybe it's a commentary on poverty levels in the country.

But you know what? That's changing. The number of black players in the game is up, MLB has invested heavily in inner cities ... it's really only a matter of time before those changes are reflected in the stands.

So tell me again why the ATLANTA Braves wouldn't want a piece of that action?

---

If you heard that the Sheikh was going to relax social restrictions on mini-skirts wouldn't you want in on that business? You know -- since the Saudis have engaging in progressive reforms for, I don't know, several decades now. Oh, I forgot, you already took all your business out of the country because Saudis traditionally don't buy mini-skirts.

 

[thethe]

Where is the support that this is a potential gold mine waiting to be tapped? It just seems like a bunch of wishful thinking with nothing substantive at all. At least nothing substantial enough to devise your future around. That seems like a dangerous proposition.

 

[Hawk]

Where is the support that this is a potential gold mine waiting to be tapped? It just seems like a bunch of wishful thinking with nothing substantive at all. At least nothing substantial enough to devise your future around. That seems like a dangerous proposition.

- Where is this idea that black people don't (and never will) like baseball coming from? Excepting ticket sales. It seems so unbelievably short-sighted to me that I almost can't entertain it.
- You aren't 'devising your future' around this one particular growth strategy -- the Braves aren't losing money, or suffering, at Turner Field by any stretch of the imagination. This is a money grab.
- It's not a foregone conclusion that growth will continue in Northern Atlanta. At some point, people/businesses are going to realize that property values are more of a bargain in South Atlanta, there is more room to develop, an extremely close proximity to the airport ... and you are going to see a shift back.
- Keeping the team in the city center would have been the best way to future proof the team's status in the city.

If the Braves don't make bank in the first few years of their residency in Cobb it will be interesting to see what Liberty does with the team.

 

[thethe]

- Where is this idea that black people don't (and never will) like baseball coming from? Excepting ticket sales. It seems so unbelievably short-sighted to me that I almost can't entertain it.
- You aren't 'devising your future' around this one particular growth strategy -- the Braves aren't losing money, or suffering, at Turner Field by any stretch of the imagination. This is a money grab.
- It's not a foregone conclusion that growth will continue in Northern Atlanta. At some point, people/businesses are going to realize that property values are more of a bargain in South Atlanta, there is more room to develop, an extremely close proximity to the airport ... and you are going to see a shift back.
- Keeping the team in the city center would have been the best way to future proof the team's status in the city.

If the Braves don't make bank in the first few years of their residency in Cobb it will be interesting to see what Liberty does with the team.

With all due respect Hawk, demographics of ticket buyers is more concrete support than anything that you have discussed.

 

[Hawk]

With all due respect Hawk, demographics of ticket buyers is more concrete support than anything that you have discussed.

No, they aren't.

The Braves made $58MM at the gate in 2014 on $250MM+ in revenue.

Where's the other $150MM coming from?

Why is that not important to consider?

 

[Julio3000]

- Keeping the team in the city center would have been the best way to future proof the team's status in the city.

Yep.

Turner Field is a great place to watch a baseball game. It's not even 20 years old. It's kinda nauseating, really.

I'll be curious to see how the architects of the Cobb County Braves react when the initial attendance degrades.

 

[thethe]

No, they aren't.

The Braves made $58MM at the gate in 2014 on $250MM+ in revenue.

Where's the other $150MM coming from?

Why is that not important to consider?

I'd imagine that the other revenues are sharing from MLB media platforms which are developed with no bearing to the inner city development of Atlanta but honestly I have no clue what consists of that number.

 

[Hawk]

I'd imagine that the other revenues are sharing from MLB media platforms which are developed with no bearing to the inner city development of Atlanta but honestly I have no clue what consists of that number.

The point has been stressed in this thread that the Braves made the move to Cobb because they want to sell more tickets.

My contention is that gate receipts don't fully account for the plethora of ways MLB teams generate money.

St. Louis had $300MM in revenue on $130MM in ticket sales. I think the Braves are probably shooting for something in that range.

But that still doesn't account for the other ~50% of revenue ... The Diamondbacks are getting $50 million dollars a year for the next 20 years as a part of their TV deal. The Dodgers even more.

Fan interest can't necessarily be strictly gauged by participation. I think you can take the same tact when analyzing black interest in the sport.

 

[chipchildress]

I'd imagine that the other revenues are sharing from MLB media platforms which are developed with no bearing to the inner city development of Atlanta but honestly I have no clue what consists of that number.

so at the end of the day, the braves are making a **** ton of money, but that's not enough and they want more more more, no matter the cost.

black people or not, it's short sighted. city cores are the future everywhere and there is a huge influx of wealthy enough young people moving inside the city on a daily basis. the market is showing up before your very eyes, right as you are moving. for those that aren't aware, the braves are a national laughing stock for this.

 

[thethe]

The point has been stressed in this thread that the Braves made the move to Cobb because they want to sell more tickets.

My contention is that gate receipts don't fully account for the plethora of ways MLB teams generate money.

St. Louis had $300MM in revenue on $130MM in ticket sales. I think the Braves are probably shooting for something in that range.

But that still doesn't account for the other ~50% of revenue ... The Diamondbacks are getting $50 million dollars a year for the next 20 years as a part of their TV deal. The Dodgers even more.

Fan interest can't necessarily be strictly gauged by participation. I think you can take the same tact when analyzing black interest in the sport.

But you are still making very 'soft' claims without any supportable data. You are just 'hoping' that the interest will rise at some point. When hundreds of millions of dollars are on the line you need something more than that.

 

[thethe]

so at the end of the day, the braves are making a **** ton of money, but that's not enough and they want more more more, no matter the cost.

black people or not, it's short sighted. city cores are the future everywhere and there is a huge influx of wealthy enough young people moving inside the city on a daily basis. the market is showing up before your very eyes, right as you are moving. for those that aren't aware, the braves are a national laughing stock for this.

They were a national laughing stock when the Cubs infiltrated the stadium and turned an Atlanta Brave playoff home game into a game at Wrigley field.

 

[chipchildress]

They were a national laughing stock when the Cubs infiltrated the stadium and turned an Atlanta Brave playoff home game into a game at Wrigley field.

i guess notre dame should have left south bend as well given that logic.

 

[thethe]

i guess notre dame should have left south bend as well given that logic.

I don't think you want to get into an argument over which fanbase supports their team the least. Braves will rank up there pretty high. Not the worst by any means but the history is not sparkling.

 

[chipchildress]

I don't think you want to get into an argument over which fanbase supports their team the least. Braves will rank up there pretty high. Not the worst by any means but the history is not sparkling.

the braves have a huge following nationally. get out of here with this nonsense about fans not supporting the team.

 

[Hawk]

But you are still making very 'soft' claims without any supportable data. You are just 'hoping' that the interest will rise at some point. When hundreds of millions of dollars are on the line you need something more than that.

I've provided plenty of supportable data, whether or not you choose to absorb it and investigate things like the RBI Program (a $30MM annual investment by MLB and over 200K participants) on your own accord is your choice.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for your solid data which proves black people don't like baseball and never well.

 

[thethe]

the braves have a huge following nationally. get out of here with this nonsense about fans not supporting the team.

Did they support the team in Atlanta by showing up to the stadium? The placement of the stadium does absolutley nothing to those fans that reside outside of Georgia.