What was the stupidest thing the three Johns did?

[MadduxFanII]

But if the majority of MLB ticket buyers are white (could be in upwards of 80%) then why wouldn't a MLB team move to an area that is primarily white?

I take your point, but this is really dangerous logic. It's the sort of thing that got the Hawks' (former) owner in trouble- catering to racial stereotypes without really believing in them isn't all that much better than sincerely believing in them. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy- you move your stadium to better service white fans because black fans don't buy tickets, and then you put black fans in a position where it's really inconvenient for them to buy tickets.

 

[thethe]

Well, that goes back to my whole comment about the Braves being the standard bearers.

Given the racial demographics in Atlanta they could (should) be the team that devises a marketing scheme that raises that number.

I mean, I know it's cliche, but sometimes the best business decisions are the ones which require the greatest risk (I think I heard that on last week's episode of Silicon Valley) and go against the grain.

What evidence suggests that minorities will ever be big ticket buyers or even in a broader sense consumers of the baseball product? Why not take advantage of an opportunity that is a sure thing? Isn't it possible that minorities will just never like baseball?

LIke you said earlier, the number of minority ticket buyers (overall ticket buyers) did not increase with two fantastic black players (J-Upt/Heyward). I know the move looks bad but the Braves are looking at the pure numbers and deciding that the best move is to move their product closer to the ticket base. It could even increase overall ticket sales because some that are even further North will decide to go to games in Cobb.

 

[thethe]

I take your point, but this is really dangerous logic. It's the sort of thing that got the Hawks' (former) owner in trouble- catering to racial stereotypes without really believing in them isn't all that much better than sincerely believing in them. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy- you move your stadium to better service white fans because black fans don't buy tickets, and then you put black fans in a position where it's really inconvenient for them to buy tickets.

No question about it that I the Braves are probably expecting a decrease in sales to minorities. Their models are probably projecting a greater increase in white ticket buyers. I just don't see the data out there that minorities in America actually care about baseball. Not at the level that should drive the decision of a business that sells baseball.

 

[MadduxFanII]

I just can't get over this. When I first saw the new stadium announcement I thought—trying to give the cloud a silver lining—oh, hey, here's a chance to kill two birds with one stone. A MARTA extension to Cobb County will ease some of the traffic congestion on the connector AND the new park will have easier MARTA access. Win win.

Nope.

Remember that quote from the Cobb County bigwig you posted immediately after the plans were announced?

"It is absolutely necessary the (transportation) solution is all about moving cars in and around Cobb and surrounding counties from our north and east where most Braves fans travel from, and not moving people into Cobb by rail from Atlanta."

Hard not to read that as (very thinly) coded language.

EDIT: Actually, Meta posted that, not Julio. Sorry, all you internet people look the same to me.

 

[smootness]

Its still suburban dude, I don't think you understand the term. Suburban doesn't mean white fences and people out mowing the grass.

The biggest issue with the stadium will be the lack of mass transit and a county opposed to mass transit.

Cobb County is suburban, but Atlanta's suburbs aren't quite the same as in a lot of places, and the stadium will be on the outskirts of it, no smack dab in the middle. Comparing it to Fed Ex is disingenuous; the locations aren't comparable. Fed Ex is closer to the middle of nowhere with regard to what is in close proximity than the city.

Anyway, Atlanta is simply not like Boston, Chicago, and Pittsburgh. You can't just say, hey look they did it, we can too. It's not that simple. The Braves could have made the decision to try to work with a city that has proven they don't really care and spend countless time and resources to try to build up the area, or they could go outside the city into a location that allows them to do this much cheaper and easier.

I don't really care about what Deadspin has to say. They are already biased against this type of move, so they generalize and pretend that if other places can do it, Atlanta can as well, with no consideration for the actual differences inherent to Atlanta.

And I'm certainly not going to care about the opinion of a person whose ultimate point is, 'I don't really know much about the suburbs, but I hate them because they hate people unlike themselves...which is unlike me.'

 

[thethe]

Cobb County is suburban, but Atlanta's suburbs aren't quite the same as in a lot of places, and the stadium will be on the outskirts of it, no smack dab in the middle. Comparing it to Fed Ex is disingenuous; the locations aren't comparable. Fed Ex is closer to the middle of nowhere with regard to what is in close proximity than the city.

Anyway, Atlanta is simply not like Boston, Chicago, and Pittsburgh. You can't just say, hey look they did it, we can too. It's not that simple. The Braves could have made the decision to try to work with a city that has proven they don't really care and spend countless time and resources to try to build up the area, or they could go outside the city into a location that allows them to do this much cheaper and easier.

I don't really care about what Deadspin has to say. They are already biased against this type of move, so they generalize and pretend that if other places can do it, Atlanta can as well, with no consideration for the actual differences inherent to Atlanta.

And I'm certainly not going to care about the opinion of a person whose ultimate point is, 'I don't really know much about the suburbs, but I hate them because they hate people unlike themselves...which is unlike me.'

Exactly, the people of Atlanta have shown little to no interest in the Braves after being handed almost two decades of great baseball. If you need any more reason why the Braves are leaving you just have to look at that.

 

[gilesfan]

How are people going to get in and out of the stadium?

 

[smootness]

I take your point, but this is really dangerous logic. It's the sort of thing that got the Hawks' (former) owner in trouble- catering to racial stereotypes without really believing in them isn't all that much better than sincerely believing in them. And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy- you move your stadium to better service white fans because black fans don't buy tickets, and then you put black fans in a position where it's really inconvenient for them to buy tickets.

I agree with this to some extent, but the Braves have been there for decades and know who is likely to come vs. who is not. Levinson was wrong not because he was racist but because he was simply wrong. The best move for the Hawks is to market toward those inside the city and heavily toward minorities. The best move for the Braves isn't.

 

[smootness]

How are people going to get in and out of the stadium?

We'll see. Honestly, I don't know what the overall plans are, but until I have reason to believe otherwise, I'll assume they do have plans in place.

But when I see people making all kinds of varying arguments, from 'They owe it to the city to try and build it up' to 'Yeah, but parking,' I assume they are just against the move because they want the team inside the city us are making any argument they can to see if it will stick.

 

[Tapate50]

How are people going to get in and out of the stadium?

 

[Hawk]

I just don't see the data out there that minorities in America actually care about baseball. Not at the level that should drive the decision of a business that sells baseball.

I'm going to be honest; I don't really feel comfortable with you making that blanket statement.

You are talking about ticket purchases. There are a wide variety of factors which might explain why minorities might not be presenting in that particular facet of revenue.

Nevertheless, you certainly don't actively work to exclude that entire demo simply because you conclude 'they don't like baseball'. You find a way to make them like it.

There are other factors which drive business models for professional sports team. TV/Merchandising/Licensing etc.

 

[thethe]

I'm going to be honest; I don't really feel comfortable with you making that blanket statement.

You are talking about ticket purchases. There are a wide variety of factors which might explain why minorities might not be presenting in that particular facet of revenue.

Nevertheless, you certainly don't actively work to exclude that entire demo simply because you conclude 'they don't like baseball'. You find a way to make them like it.

There are other factors which drive business models for professional sports team. TV/Merchandising/Licensing etc.

I understand how my stance is going to be interpreted. What are you basing your argument of, "The Braves haven't tried hard enough", on? What evidence is out there that minorities are going to consume the baseball product? If there was evidence out there then the move away from a densely populated area is foolish. However, I think the Braves feel that they have provided the community with every reason to root for a successful baseball team and haven't gotten any reciprocation from the community. How many times did we hear about how the Cubs were louder than the Brave fans in that series? It was embarrassing.

 

[Hawk]

But when I see people making all kinds of varying arguments, from 'They owe it to the city to try and build it up' to 'Yeah, but parking,' I assume they are just against the move because they want the team inside the city us are making any argument they can to see if it will stick.

Whether or not the stadium is inside the city limits is completely immaterial. Like somebody said earlier, 'It's only like 1-2 miles outside!'

We're talking about abandoning a stadium that was built by the taxpayers of Atlanta for the Olympics (less than 20 years ago) and given to the Braves for free. We're talking about the damage it does to the neighborhood surrounding Turner Field and the entire downtown area.

What's your argument for moving to Cobb? More money.

What else is there?

For people that love to **** on Liberty, some of y'all really do lap up the corporatist behemoth that is SunTrust Park.

 

[smootness]

I'm going to be honest; I don't really feel comfortable with you making that blanket statement.

You are talking about ticket purchases. There are a wide variety of factors which might explain why minorities might not be presenting in that particular facet of revenue.

Nevertheless, you certainly don't actively work to exclude that entire demo simply because you conclude 'they don't like baseball'. You find a way to make them like it.

There are other factors which drive business models for professional sports team. TV/Merchandising/Licensing etc.

No one is suggesting that the Braves actively alienate anyone. Their marketing efforts should be targeted but inclusive.

But there is no business on the face of the earth that will continue to spend to try to create a market when there already exists a market they could easily move into.

 

[MadduxFanII]

For people that love to **** on Liberty, some of y'all really do lap up the corporatist behemoth that is SunTrust Park.

I'm withholding judgment until I receive final word on whether or not there will be art deco sculptures of idealized dudes lifting heavy things.

 

[Hawk]

Their marketing efforts should be targeted but inclusive.

Egads, criminy, etc.

But there is no business on the face of the earth that will continue to spend to try to create a market when there already exists a market they could easily move into.

They wouldn't be 'creating' a market -- they would be tapping one.

 

[smootness]

Whether or not the stadium is inside the city limits is completely immaterial. Like somebody said earlier, 'It's only like 1-2 miles outside!'

We're talking about abandoning a stadium that was built by the taxpayers of Atlanta for the Olympics (less than 20 years ago) and given to the Braves for free. We're talking about the damage it does to the neighborhood surrounding Turner Field and the entire downtown area.

What your argument for moving to Cobb? More money.

What else is there?

For people that love to **** on Liberty, some of y'all really do lap up the corporatist behemoth that is SunTrust Park.

I am in favor of the Braves making decisions that will help the franchise. More money is a huge part of that, yes.

The Braves were given Turner Field for free as an easy way for the city to keep them there, since the franchise was already considering a move at that point. After that, the city took the team for granted and did literally nothing to improve the area, help the team, or entice them to stay. I'm sorry if I don't think the Braves should then reward the city for this by bending over backward to build something there to the detriment of the franchise.

If the city wanted the Braves, it had years and years of opportunities to prove that.

I don't hate Liberty because they're a corporation. I just don't want a corporation owning the team...but it is better than some other alternatives.

I do love, though, when people crap over businesses for being all about the bottom line, but say nothing about a city and its government who took the benefits of the team for years without investing anything of their own, then cry when they have the audacity to leave...after 50 years.

 

[smootness]

Egads, criminy, etc.

They wouldn't be 'creating' a market -- they would be tapping one.

'Finding a way to make them like it' is creating a market. Especially when there is a bigger market that already exists elsewhere.

You are assuming there is an untapped market there. That isn't necessarily the case, and there exists years of data to show that it isn't.

 

[Tapate50]

Whether or not the stadium is inside the city limits is completely immaterial. Like somebody said earlier, 'It's only like 1-2 miles outside!'

We're talking about abandoning a stadium that was built by the taxpayers of Atlanta for the Olympics (less than 20 years ago) and given to the Braves for free. We're talking about the damage it does to the neighborhood surrounding Turner Field and the entire downtown area.

What's your argument for moving to Cobb? More money.

What else is there?

For people that love to **** on Liberty, some of y'all really do lap up the corporatist behemoth that is SunTrust Park.

That area will be fine. Either Ga St or a private investment group is hot on that property.

 

[smootness]

There seems to be a clear disagreement on principle. Some seem to believe the Braves have a moral obligation to help improve the city of Atlanta, even if it means that it does nothing for the bottom line of the team.

I believe the Braves have an obligation to the franchise. While I would love for there to be a perfect solution inside the city, I don't believe the Braves owe anything to the city, especially given that the city hasn't really done anything for the Braves.

Since it seems the two sides disagree on this basic point, we should probably just drop it. We won't ever see eye to eye.