Starting over...who are the untouchables?

zitothebrave said:
Honestly, you'regonna question Heyward's motivation? You can question many things about Jason, but I'm fairly sure there's less than a handful of players on the team who work harder than him. Think about the last time Jason dogged it down the line, or gave up on a ball,or done any number of things.
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Not even what was being referenced in the quote. You think he walks on water because Fangraphs said "5.0 WAR." That gave him a free pass for hitting around BJ & Uggla levels during the 1st half.
 
Julio3000 said:
That's complete horse****. Really. Have you watched a game this season?
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Yup, first half offensive production discussed in post above. Second half was certainly better, but he was counted on for leadership. If the reports are to be believed, did he do anything to step up in the clubhouse?

Maybe he was some god-like status with some members of Braves fandom, but don't be surprised if his name comes up in trade talks. Maybe there's a reason that he was only signed to a 2-year deal? Maybe he and his agent are determined to explore free agency. In that case, there are good reasons to try and get something in return.
 
Knucksie said:
Yup, first half offensive production discussed in post above. Second half was certainly better, but he was counted on for leadership. If the reports are to be believed, did he do anything to step up in the clubhouse?

Maybe he was some god-like status with some members of Braves fandom, but don't be surprised if his name comes up in trade talks. Maybe there's a reason that he was only signed to a 2-year deal? Maybe he and his agent are determined to explore free agency. In that case, there are good reasons to try and get something in return.
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So a poor 1st half and some utter conjecture about leadership qualifies you to question his desire? He shows fire on the field, sells out on pretty much every play, and is available to the media after every game.

The reasons given by the team and by his agent adequately explained why he wasn't signed to an extension. There's no mystery there.

You're entitled to think that he could or should be traded. That's a totally defensible position. But questioning his desire is something else entirely.
 
Knucksie said:
Not even what was being referenced in the quote. You think he walks on water because Fangraphs said "5.0 WAR." That gave him a free pass for hitting around BJ & Uggla levels during the 1st half.
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Heyward in the first half (your sample) hit .255/.342/.375 for a 717 OPS .322 wOBA and 105 wRC+

Uggla hit in the first half .162/.241/.231 for a .471 OPS .222 wOBA and 36 wRC+

Bossman hit in the first half .215/.277/.341 for a .618 OPS .277 wOBA and 74 wRC+

Yeah he really hit like them the first half of the season. I think you confused APril with the first half. Jason got off to a bad start in April that was kind of close to Bossman's production, but it was primarily driven by a low BABIP, and a K rate which was an outlier on the year. When his stats normalized he was back into the 115-130 wRC+ range where he spends most of the year aside from his cold slumps.
 
not sure how people here keep saying you can't have so many offensive black holes while in the same breath say heyward is untouchable.

not to say he's a black hole offensively, but he's not gary sheffield by any stretch either. we're putting all of this stock (way too much) into his baserunning and defense, but what happens to those areas when he ages? he's 25 and big. will he still be a so called elite baserunner in four years?

that discussion notwithstanding, it still doesn't make sense that we say lack of offense if the problem while saying moving heyward is a horrible idea unless you believe he'll show dramatic improvement offensively going forward.
 
zitothebrave said:
Heyward in the first half (your sample) hit .255/.342/.375 for a 717 OPS .322 wOBA and 105 wRC+

Uggla hit in the first half .162/.241/.231 for a .471 OPS .222 wOBA and 36 wRC+

Bossman hit in the first half .215/.277/.341 for a .618 OPS .277 wOBA and 74 wRC+

Yeah he really hit like them the first half of the season. I think you confused APril with the first half. Jason got off to a bad start in April that was kind of close to Bossman's production, but it was primarily driven by a low BABIP, and a K rate which was an outlier on the year. When his stats normalized he was back into the 115-130 wRC+ range where he spends most of the year aside from his cold slumps.
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you can't disregard his cold slumps from the equation and have an honest discussion about his production.
 
chipchildress said:
you can't disregard his cold slumps from the equation and have an honest discussion about his production.
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You can't disregard them, I never said to disregard them. The stat that was put out there was he sucked for the first half. The truth is he's performing a bit below his production from the last 2 years, but he's still a net positive hitter for RF. Unless he goes 0fer the rest of the season he'll still be a net positive in RF. Sure he would have been better in the second half then the first half. But **** like that often wins players MVP awards (remember a case for Howard was his production improved "when the games mattered" or some **** like that)

Heyward is not Justin or Freddie with the bat, he's not on their level. But just cause he's not 15 best hitters in the NL, doesn't mean he's a liability with the bat, or a bad hitter, or any other number of things that people seem to insinuate with him. When he's on, he's an above average hitter who brings much more to the field and basepaths. When he isn't he's frustrating but he never stays down. We have one year where he was below MLB average for a hitter, aside from that he's lived pretty comfortably above that mark.
 
chipchildress said:
not sure how people here keep saying you can't have so many offensive black holes while in the same breath say heyward is untouchable.

not to say he's a black hole offensively, but he's not gary sheffield by any stretch either. we're putting all of this stock (way too much) into his baserunning and defense, but what happens to those areas when he ages? he's 25 and big. will he still be a so called elite baserunner in four years?

that discussion notwithstanding, it still doesn't make sense that we say lack of offense if the problem while saying moving heyward is a horrible idea unless you believe he'll show dramatic improvement offensively going forward.
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He probably won't be elite in those years. Speed tends to leave him, but odds are that he'll still be hitting like he's hitting now and if he loses his speed and defense a bit, that still will have him being a solid performer.

I'd trade Jason but someone better blow me away. I'm talking like Wil Myers trade and then some.
 
zitothebrave said:
Heyward in the first half (your sample) hit .255/.342/.375 for a 717 OPS .322 wOBA and 105 wRC+

Uggla hit in the first half .162/.241/.231 for a .471 OPS .222 wOBA and 36 wRC+

Bossman hit in the first half .215/.277/.341 for a .618 OPS .277 wOBA and 74 wRC+

Yeah he really hit like them the first half of the season. I think you confused APril with the first half. Jason got off to a bad start in April that was kind of close to Bossman's production, but it was primarily driven by a low BABIP, and a K rate which was an outlier on the year. When his stats normalized he was back into the 115-130 wRC+ range where he spends most of the year aside from his cold slumps.
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Wasn't it you, who said over at Scout that Kelly was a sure-fire 1.000 OPS?
 
cajunrevenge said:
Justin/BJ for Prado/Adam Warren. Yankees pay Prado ' s salary Braves pay 5 mill a year of BJ'S salary.

Heywood to the Cubs for Arismendy Alcantara/Neil Ramirez/Dan Vogelbach. The Cubs I think are going to make some big moves now that their top prospects are hitting the majors. I think they sign one of Lester or Scherzer. They have the money to re-sign Heywood. Arismendy can play CF, 2b and SS. Ramirez gives us a high quality and cheap setup man to strengthen the pen. Vogelbach has no future with the Cubs, probably doesn't in Atlanta either but we can use him as a future trade chip.

I would to get Mookie Betts and Henry Owens from the Red Sox.

If we could get the Dodgers in the bidding I would like to get Joc Pedersen and Alex Gurrero.

Justin blocked a trade to the Mariners that had Taijun Walker. Would live to have him in a trade for Heywood. Wish they still had Nick Franklin so we could get him too.

I like Nick Castellanos of the Tigers but they don't have much else to trade. Maybe Justin and BJ for Castellanos and Nathan.

I can't really see any other teams with the ammo and ability to re-sign either of them. I would also look to sign Yasmany Tomas to replace one of them.
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Other than the Cubs offer, let me put this nicely.

That would be beyond stupid.
 
zitothebrave said:
He probably won't be elite in those years. Speed tends to leave him, but odds are that he'll still be hitting like he's hitting now and if he loses his speed and defense a bit, that still will have him being a solid performer.

I'd trade Jason but someone better blow me away. I'm talking like Wil Myers trade and then some.
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We arent getting a Wil Myers for Heyward if we trade him.
 
Heyward said:
Other than the Cubs offer, let me put this nicely.

That would be beyond stupid.
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And other people think they are too lopsided in the Braves favor. Trading good players about to hit free agency rather than paying them close to market value has proven to be a good strategy. Whatever we can get for them in trade plus the payroll space will make us a better team. I just can't fathom paying 3 hitters 20 million a year and having this bad of offense.
 
I'd Def look to trade one and sign the other. Sign Justin and trade Heyward. Or both if u get a ton back. But every option should be explored with no emotions attached.
 
Hudson2 said:
I'd Def look to trade one and sign the other. Sign Justin and trade Heyward. Or both if u get a ton back. But every option should be explored with no emotions attached.
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And people say our offense is bad this year. Make those moves and we'll be enjoying top 5 picks for a while.
 
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