Johnny Cueto

Millwood1Hitter said:
So Maddux was average in 03?
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Did you read any of the above? Maddux was compensated at a rate that was 5-7 times the amount that the "average" player made.

I don't know what you do or make (nor do I care), but if you're "average" at your job and make $50,000, that means Maddux would have been paid between $250,000 and $350,000 to do the same job.
 
cajunrevenge said:
Greinke = Maddux. Sign him. He will be an ace through his late 30's. Also a pretty good hitter. Had 2 HR this year.
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Best guess on the winning bid for Greinke? 5 years/$150 million.

I'd do that in a heartbeat. Much better investment than 7-8 years for Price, J-Up, or Heyward IMO. Will the Braves? I have no clue. But I personally believe the shorter exposure makes him worth the gamble if I had a say. He just "fits".

Think about it - the consistent message the mouthpieces deliver is going back to the "Braves' Way". For as much as other players (Chipper, Andruw, McGriff, Furcal, etc.) contributed, that "Braves Way" in the 1990s will ALWAYS be identified with three names above all others - Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz.

Lock up Greinke, Miller, and Teheran (already done), for the foreseeable future and trade some of the other young pitching you've stockpiled for the McGriffs/Drews/Sheffields to fill the holes. That's the textbook definition of the "Braves Way".
 
5 years 150 million was what I had suggested before. 5 years is ideal because by that time these young players we have will start hitting free agency and the ones coming up in the next 2 year will be in their arbitration years.
 
clvclv said:
Best guess on the winning bid for Greinke? 5 years/$150 million.

I'd do that in a heartbeat. Much better investment than 7-8 years for Price, J-Up, or Heyward IMO. Will the Braves? I have no clue. But I personally believe the shorter exposure makes him worth the gamble if I had a say. He just "fits".

Think about it - the consistent message the mouthpieces deliver is going back to the "Braves' Way". For as much as other players (Chipper, Andruw, McGriff, Furcal, etc.) contributed, that "Braves Way" in the 1990s will ALWAYS be identified with three names above all others - Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz.

Lock up Greinke, Miller, and Teheran (already done), for the foreseeable future and trade some of the other young pitching you've stockpiled for the McGriffs/Drews/Sheffields to fill the holes. That's the textbook definition of the "Braves Way".
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I definately agree, I'd definately do that. Find another bat to compliment Freeman in the middle of the order, shore up the catching position, and find our next Chipper in the draft and indeed it could be similiar to the mid 90's with all the talent in the lower minors, similiar to how we graduated Javy, Klesko, Andruw among others after our fast rise in the early 90's to compliment Justice, Gant, Smoltz, Avery, and Glavine along with the veterans like Pendleton, Bream, Liebrandt, and Belliard that we're brought it.

I'd be more than happy with signing Grienke and Wieters, bringing back Kelly Johnson, and taking a flier on O'Flaherty again for the bullpen. Gauge the trade market and trade some of the surplus of pitching that we have for a MLB ready corner outfielder and go with what we got and see what happens. I'd like to get Leake as well, but I understand that that would be a long-shot under this scenerio....that being said I'd take a flier on Minor comping back and trying to rebuild value.

If Olivera can prove the be the real deal, and Swisher and Bourne could give us any thing at all, that could be a young, fun, and dynamic team that could potentially compete if some things go our way and a huge building block going forward.
 
clvclv said:
Best guess on the winning bid for Greinke? 5 years/$150 million.

I'd do that in a heartbeat. Much better investment than 7-8 years for Price, J-Up, or Heyward IMO. Will the Braves? I have no clue.
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Here's your clue:

The front office specifically said they won't be shopping in the elite isle of the FA market.

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to google the many quotes where it has been said. Over and over and over.

I swear it's the same every single offseason. Folks stick their heads in the sand and insist there's a chance the Braves make huge signings despite all evidence to the contrary.
 
The other good thing about Greinke is that he loves the draft and minor leagues. He can see what we're doing here and may be interested in coming here and being a part of it and the new stadium. He'll be made aware that we have more money coming to help out next year to. 5 years I'd be all over that for a pitcher of his caliber. Him and Miller would be that 1-2 punch you want at the top of your rotation and he'd be a huge help on Teheran and Wisler as well. I'm not sure what the front office will do or is actually thinking, but I hope they are open minded to it.
 
Enscheff said:
Here's your clue:

The front office specifically said they won't be shopping in the elite isle of the FA market.

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to google the many quotes where it has been said. Over and over and over.

I swear it's the same every single offseason. Folks stick their heads in the sand and insist there's a chance the Braves make huge signings despite all evidence to the contrary.
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Things always change. Just like with us trading Kimbrel in the spring, they didnt see that coming either. I'm not sure what will happen but I do know they need some star power going into the new stadium to get the excitement level up. And next offseason there isn't much there to do that.
 
Enscheff said:
Here's your clue:

The front office specifically said they won't be shopping in the elite isle of the FA market.

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to google the many quotes where it has been said. Over and over and over.

I swear it's the same every single offseason. Folks stick their heads in the sand and insist there's a chance the Braves make huge signings despite all evidence to the contrary.
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Your probably right....BUT I wouldn't trust anything the FO has to say to the media. JS and JH have a history of being spin artists. In case you forgot:

While on a live broadcast in mid July on TBS, JS adamately told Skip Carey that the team had had no negotiations with the San Diego Padres at all about Fred McGriff, contrary to many insiders saying we had interest. 3 days later McGriff was lighting Fulton County Stadium up in a Braves uniform.

In the spring of 1997, JS told Justice that he would bet his house that he won't be traded despite rumors that Justice's time in Atlanta was near an end. A few days later Justice was traded to the Indians.

Just this last offseason, Hart was quoted repeatedly saying he was going to build a contender and build around Craig Kimbrel. Craig Kimbrel did not throw a pitch for the Atlanta Braves in 2015.

Fitting isn't it? http://alamancelibraries.libguides.com/kingoflies
 
The Braves have never been a team to say yes we're going to be big spenders on the FA market and go after Greinke. Why would they ever say that? Makes no sense. You never tell somebody you're gonna kick em in the nuts before the fight starts.
 
Hawk said:
LOL. I have a bridge to sell you.

And once you've bought it, you'll be a lot of fun to dance with.
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I definitely don't think we should take everything the FO says at face value. Some things will surely be said for leverage purposes, and some happenings either won't be talked about out or will be polished up a bit out of respect for those involved. We all have to use our own judgment as to what is said for effect, and what is real.

Last offseason, I regularly opined that I didn't buy what Hart was saying about holding on to Gattis, Upton, Kimbrel, etc. He said it in a way that was not definitive, and it just didn't make sense for them to hang on to those guys.

When it comes to what both Hart and Coppy have said about about the front-line SP market, I personally believe it's real and not for effect. To paraphrase, both have said that acquiring TOR starters on the FA market is the most inefficient use of resources possible in the game. That is a tough thing to say multiple times, definitively and then sign Zack Greinke for 6 / $180m. I also happen to agree with what they've said on this subject, so perhaps my inclination to believe them is wishful thinking.

I do expect some due-diligence to be done on TOR starters. I also expect some trumped-up media reports about our interest in one or more of these guys. The kind or reports that are clearly sourced from player agents. If we are to eventually acquire a 1 / 2 type starter, I believe it will come via the trade market.
 
I just don't see them trading the talent it would take to get a TOR type starter. We'd be trading off the talent we've tried so hard to acquire. So I disagree that the FA market is an inefficient way. You're gonna have to pay both in money and prospects or just in money. No brainer to me.
 
OK cool, I'll bump this thread in March and see what explanation you 4 can offer as to why the Braves didn't even make a run at any of the $100M+ guys. Apparently you all think the Braves, who have never handed out a FA contract larger than $75M, are suddenly going to be in the business of handing out $150M-$200M+ contracts. Riiiiight.

The only guy at the $100M level the Braves have a prayer of signing is Gordon, and even that is an extreme long shot. I would guess even Leake and his expected 4/60-5/75 contract will be too rich for the Braves this offseason. Right pitcher, wrong time again...until the new revenue from the new ballpark is actually flowing.
 
Enscheff said:
OK cool, I'll bump this thread in March and see what explanation you 4 can offer as to why the Braves didn't even make a run at any of the $100M+ guys. Apparently you all think the Braves, who have never handed out a FA contract larger than $75M, are suddenly going to be in the business of handing out $150M-$200M+ contracts. Riiiiight.

The only guy at the $100M level the Braves have a prayer of signing is Gordon, and even that is an extreme long shot. I would guess even Leake and his expected 4/60-5/75 contract will be too rich for the Braves this offseason. Right pitcher, wrong time again...until the new revenue from the new ballpark is actually flowing.
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I don’t think anyone is declaring that they WILL, just that the COULD, and will likely at least kick tires, even if we never hear of it. Should? Topic of great debate. Will? Maybe. Take the FO at face value? No way.
 
Enscheff said:
Here's your clue:

The front office specifically said they won't be shopping in the elite isle of the FA market.

I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to google the many quotes where it has been said. Over and over and over.

I swear it's the same every single offseason. Folks stick their heads in the sand and insist there's a chance the Braves make huge signings despite all evidence to the contrary.
Click to expand...

Since you want google quotes...

"We have never entertained trading (Kimbrel) and have had zero conversations with any clubs about Craig," Hart told MLB.com's Mark Bowman. "I want him finishing out a World Series win." - http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/01/atlanta_braves_john_hart_say_t.html

"We are coming in with the idea that we don't have to trade anybody," Hart said. "We have not made a call (to see if a team is interested in any player). We have received calls on people; we haven't had any conversations yet. That (Gattis rumor) is absolutely inaccurate. And quite frankly, I think anybody that says that - if you look, I've got two corner outfielders who've got one year left (before free agency), and I've got one potential corner outfielder (Gattis) that's got four years left (under contractual control)." - http://www.talkingchop.com/2014/11/10/7191893/mlb-trade-rumors-evan-gattis-john-hart-atlanta-braves

"Everybody felt there would be some players we would definitely unload — become a seller, if you will. But we’ve never felt like there was something we had to do. Obviously we’re contractually obligated to some players who aren’t performing well. But just because 2017 is coming, it doesn’t mean we’re going to throw a hand grenade on the club and blow it up. That wouldn’t guarantee success for 2017, either.”
- http://www.chatsports.com/atlanta-b...ends-Jason-Heyward-trade-offseason-moves-3042

"We're still having some conversations with people," Braves president of baseball operations John Hart said. "But I think our priority right now for the 2015 club is we're going to attempt to find at least one more [starting pitcher]. There's still some talks that are going to continue to go, possibly into February, with free agents and potential deals.

I made it real clear from the beginning that we're not looking to trade anybody. We'll certainly entertain whatever might come our way. If there is something that comes along with real value for us, we'll certainly examine it. We have not found that as of yet. It's not us out there trying to drum it up. But for us, it would have to be a deal that would have to make sense, or we're just not going to do it." - http://m.mlb.com/news/article/104410518/braves-being-patient-as-trade-market-shakes-out

How many times does he have to say one thing when he's just putting the right spin on it to make people understand that THEIR plan has never been discussed publicly? What good can come out of publicly stating that "we want David Price/Zack Greinke/Yoenis Cespedes/whomever - particularly when those types of statements are prohibited by MLB?

Are they going to go after any of those players? Again, I don't have any inside information that says so one way or the other. The point is, you don't either unless you've spoken personally to JS, Hart, Coppy, or Cox, and I'm willing to bet you don't have their cell numbers. If you want to throw up your hands and say "all the evidence points to the contrary", you discount the Maddux signing AND the fact that A-Rod went to bed one night a few years back thinking he was a Brave.
 
clvclv said:
Since you want google quotes...

"We have never entertained trading (Kimbrel) and have had zero conversations with any clubs about Craig," Hart told MLB.com's Mark Bowman. "I want him finishing out a World Series win." - http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2015/01/atlanta_braves_john_hart_say_t.html

"We are coming in with the idea that we don't have to trade anybody," Hart said. "We have not made a call (to see if a team is interested in any player). We have received calls on people; we haven't had any conversations yet. That (Gattis rumor) is absolutely inaccurate. And quite frankly, I think anybody that says that - if you look, I've got two corner outfielders who've got one year left (before free agency), and I've got one potential corner outfielder (Gattis) that's got four years left (under contractual control)." - http://www.talkingchop.com/2014/11/10/7191893/mlb-trade-rumors-evan-gattis-john-hart-atlanta-braves

"Everybody felt there would be some players we would definitely unload — become a seller, if you will. But we’ve never felt like there was something we had to do. Obviously we’re contractually obligated to some players who aren’t performing well. But just because 2017 is coming, it doesn’t mean we’re going to throw a hand grenade on the club and blow it up. That wouldn’t guarantee success for 2017, either.”
- http://www.chatsports.com/atlanta-b...ends-Jason-Heyward-trade-offseason-moves-3042

"We're still having some conversations with people," Braves president of baseball operations John Hart said. "But I think our priority right now for the 2015 club is we're going to attempt to find at least one more [starting pitcher]. There's still some talks that are going to continue to go, possibly into February, with free agents and potential deals.

I made it real clear from the beginning that we're not looking to trade anybody. We'll certainly entertain whatever might come our way. If there is something that comes along with real value for us, we'll certainly examine it. We have not found that as of yet. It's not us out there trying to drum it up. But for us, it would have to be a deal that would have to make sense, or we're just not going to do it." - http://m.mlb.com/news/article/104410518/braves-being-patient-as-trade-market-shakes-out

How many times does he have to say one thing when he's just putting the right spin on it to make people understand that THEIR plan has never been discussed publicly? What good can come out of publicly stating that "we want David Price/Zack Greinke/Yoenis Cespedes/whomever - particularly when those types of statements are prohibited by MLB?

Are they going to go after any of those players? Again, I don't have any inside information that says so one way or the other. The point is, you don't either unless you've spoken personally to JS, Hart, Coppy, or Cox, and I'm willing to bet you don't have their cell numbers. If you want to throw up your hands and say "all the evidence points to the contrary", you discount the Maddux signing AND the fact that A-Rod went to bed one night a few years back thinking he was a Brave.
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Wait a minute.. you are telling me Hart was lying to me when he said that.
 
bravesfanMatt said:
Wait a minute.. you are telling me Hart was lying to me when he said that.
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Ha, I think he was pretty careful with his words not to lie, but he was DEFINITELY trying to deceive. It always read like a leverage play to me. That's the nature of his job, and I'd be very disappointed if he handled it any other way.

Just one man's opinion, but I think the audience for the recent talking point on FA SPs was the fan base in an attempt to set expectations for what they would - and would not - be doing to build the roster. It's not clear to me how the comments would aid in negotiating leverage.
 
Millwood1Hitter said:
I definately agree, I'd definately do that. Find another bat to compliment Freeman in the middle of the order, shore up the catching position, and find our next Chipper in the draft and indeed it could be similiar to the mid 90's with all the talent in the lower minors, similiar to how we graduated Javy, Klesko, Andruw among others after our fast rise in the early 90's to compliment Justice, Gant, Smoltz, Avery, and Glavine along with the veterans like Pendleton, Bream, Liebrandt, and Belliard that we're brought it.

I'd be more than happy with signing Grienke and Wieters, bringing back Kelly Johnson, and taking a flier on O'Flaherty again for the bullpen. Gauge the trade market and trade some of the surplus of pitching that we have for a MLB ready corner outfielder and go with what we got and see what happens. I'd like to get Leake as well, but I understand that that would be a long-shot under this scenerio....that being said I'd take a flier on Minor comping back and trying to rebuild value.

If Olivera can prove the be the real deal, and Swisher and Bourne could give us any thing at all, that could be a young, fun, and dynamic team that could potentially compete if some things go our way and a huge building block going forward.
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I'd personally think that throwing $30 million per at Greinke would preclude The Johns from being able to spend on Wieters, but maybe not. JS has consistently said that Liberty has entrusted payroll increases to McGuirk, and they proved it when they went out and got Santana when Medlen and Beachy went down. MOST signs point to the fact that they have $30-$35 million available to spend, but my guess is that they COULD decide to exceed that if they somehow got Greinke and the opportunity to add Wieters at a reasonable price arises.

They at least appear to believe that Mallex and Albies are going to be inexpensive contributors for some time, and are obviously big believers in Olivera (whether that makes people here happy or not). If Maitan turns into that Chipper-like player in the draft of that period, you've suddenly got a lot of the same types of pieces in place to try to build something sustainable for an extended period.

I think the point that most of the naysayers ignore is that they appear to be looking to set the organization up for a long period of success as opposed to building a "contender" for one specific year. Going out and signing that one cornerstone to front the rotation in Greinke (like when Maddux was signed) puts you in a position to trade from the position of strength you've built in your system - young, high-end SPs. Before the purge of Heyward, Justin, and Gattis and the discarding of the two huge contracts that B. J./Melvin and Kimbrel represented, there was absolutely nothing of value in the pipeline - much less a "strength".
 
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