Braves interested in Chris Sale...

I like his comments. Must be similar when he goes out to dinner and the waiter asks what kind of salad he wants with his dinner: " we don't need to talk about that, it's not happening "
 
auyushu said:
From 2012 (when Sale became a starter) through 2014 Sale had 19.4 WAR, Hamels had 15.8. And Sale had better numbers last year as well. So no, Hamels was not even close to being more valuable over that time frame. When you combine the contract and age difference it's not even close.

None of the players you mentioned had similar quality and control, not sure why you are trying to act like they did. Grienke only had 2 years of control, Lee only had 1 1/2, Halladay was about to be a free agent, that's nowhere close to the 3 1/2 years Sale has. And the idea that Miller or Shields are anywhere close to the same level as those three and Sale is completely laughable. Sale has been the 3rd (bWAR) or 4th (fWAR) most valuable pitcher in baseball since 2012.
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Not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but if you go from the 4 years before either pitcher was traded (starting in 11 for Hamels and 12 fo Sale) Hamel's has more value.

And you make no mention of Bedard I see. The point remains that you can't provide one single instance of a player (or even a package of players) being traded for 4 top 100 prospects, pitcher or positional player. It simply doesnt happen.
 
zbhargrove said:
I didn't mean necessarily for his level... I just mean he's still young and still has 2 or 3 years to figure it out...
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Yeah, he does have time to figure it out. He's certainly young in absolute terms. And he may do exactly that. Still, I wouldn't hesitate to include him in a deal for young, affordable big-league talent.
 
Julio3000 said:
Yeah, he does have time to figure it out. He's certainly young in absolute terms. And he may do exactly that. Still, I wouldn't hesitate to include him in a deal for young, affordable big-league talent.
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I wouldn't either... he'd be my first guy to offer up in a big deal.
 
Carp said:
Not sure where you are getting your numbers from, but if you go from the 4 years before either pitcher was traded (starting in 11 for Hamels and 12 fo Sale) Hamel's has more value.
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I was using the years from 2012-2014 for both players. Why would I use separate years for both players when I'm comparing both in the same time period? And as I said before, no pitcher of Sale's age and talent level has been traded with this much control left that I can think of, so what has happened in the past isn't really relevant there. But even then you are wrong about it never happening ever, as we traded 4 top 100 prospects for Tex back in the middle of 2007.

I actually missed you mentioning Bedard, which is why I didn't say anything about him. Though I'm not sure how you figure he belongs in the discussion either. Are you seriously trying to compare a guy who had one year of TOR performance in his entire career to Sale, Halladay, Lee, or Grienke?
 
Horsehide Harry said:
Which is really scary since pretty much EVERYBODY else including most fans can look at this 110 loss club and see that 2017 is going to be a disaster record wise (maybe lesser, 90 losses) and that 2018 looks like the year when some of the young talent might have a chance to be impactful.
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Can I get an official count of everyone here who says there is no chance we compete next year so I can mock you relentlessly next year like 2015 when most of this board was fellatiating the nationals all year. And by compete I mean over .500 because that would have us playing meaningful games until the last week. Feel free to do the same to me if I am wrong.
 
cajunrevenge said:
Can I get an official count of everyone here who says there is no chance we compete next year so I can mock you relentlessly next year like 2015 when most of this board was fellatiating the nationals all year. And by compete I mean over .500 because that would have us playing meaningful games until the last week. Feel free to do the same to me if I am wrong.
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The Braves would have to improve by 30 games at their current pace to be a ~.500 team next season. That seems substantial at this point.
 
cajunrevenge said:
Can I get an official count of everyone here who says there is no chance we compete next year so I can mock you relentlessly next year like 2015 when most of this board was fellatiating the nationals all year. And by compete I mean over .500 because that would have us playing meaningful games until the last week. Feel free to do the same to me if I am wrong.
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I'm in
 
cajunrevenge said:
We are tanking this year, I don't consider this a good bench mark for the talent we have.
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What talent? The few players at the MLB level who are legit MLB players are doing well this year. There are a ton of holes to fill before this team is a .500 ballclub. That's needing several FA signing to go right and the minor league callups to perform at a decent level out of the gate.
 
cajunrevenge said:
Can I get an official count of everyone here who says there is no chance we compete next year so I can mock you relentlessly next year like 2015 when most of this board was fellatiating the nationals all year. And by compete I mean over .500 because that would have us playing meaningful games until the last week. Feel free to do the same to me if I am wrong.
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If they do not bring in talent for 3b, LF, C and a starting pitcher they will not compete next year. If they improve all those 4 positions with MLB average or better players they have a legit chance at being .500.

Feel free to write that down in your little book of things to ridicule someone about a year from now.
 
thewupk said:
What talent? The few players at the MLB level who are legit MLB players are doing well this year. There are a ton of holes to fill before this team is a .500 ballclub. That's needing several FA signing to go right and the minor league callups to perform at a decent level out of the gate.
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Exactly. It's not like Teheran is in the 4's with ERA or Freeman is hitting .220 with 5 HR. Both those guys are essentially at the top of their historical performance curve. And while Inciarte is probably better than he is this year, he's almost certainly not as good as he was at Arizona. Who else you got? Viz? About as good as can be expected, probably not much room to improve and if he does it doesn't affect much. Peterson? I think you have to say he's likely doing about as good as he can do. Markakis? Most likely will decline not improve as he ages. Flowers? Doing better this year than he EVER has.

The thing is next years team MIGHT get some improved play out of the young pitchers - Folty, Wisler, Gant, Blair, etc. They MIGHT get some improvement out of the young pen guys. They MIGHT get some help at 2B and SS SOME TIME next season, but almost certainly not until after Super Two is out of the way, assuming it still applies.

Outside of that it's whatever FA they bring in and unless they corner the market on the best of the bad in a poor FA class, they aren't moving the needle much. They could bring in enough guys to pick up 10 more wins and still lose more than 90 games.

The timing is just bad. Wishing it isn't bad (or refusing to recognize it for what it is) won't make it go away.
 
zbhargrove said:
He hit well last season? Really? With an OPS under .700? That's awful. He's been no better this year and there's no real evidence he's turned any corner. He's on a bit of a streak right now. He's always had brief hot streaks. And his speed and power have gone from being respectable as a SS to non existent. Newcomb has ace potential if he can get his command under control. And he's still young.
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seriously, don't bother or waste your time. you will get no where, he knows absolutely nothing. just ignore him.
 
I will spare you a long rant. If the Braves lose more than 80 games next year I will admit I know nothing about baseball. I am more confident in this than the sun coming up tommorrow.
 
Enscheff said:
If they do not bring in talent for 3b, LF, C and a starting pitcher they will not compete next year. If they improve all those 4 positions with MLB average or better players they have a legit chance at being .500.

Feel free to write that down in your little book of things to ridicule someone about a year from now.
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Yeah, this is pretty much where I am as well, if we add decent talent at 3B, LF, and C we have a shot at hitting .500. But even then we'd have to have some young players play really well and have really good health luck to make it happen. Teams don't go from 100 losses to over .500 without some really good luck as well.
 
I think we'll be a .500 team next year. In the 75-85 win range. If lucky at the top end of the range or a little above. If unlucky at or slightly below the low end.

The biggest source of uncertainty is the young starting pitching. But I think we'll uncover enough to get by from among Teheran, Wisler, Folty, Gant, Perez, Newcomb, Sims, Blair, Jenkins, Ellis, Whalen, Povse and Weber. I like the first four on my list. We'll find a decent fifth and also enough to cover for the inevitable injuries and loss of form. It is a young inexperienced group by and large. But I like the potential. Of course we need some of that potential to become reality.
 
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