2020 Trade Deadline Thread

[clvclv]

Maybe not...thought someone had mentioned this last week.


I give Waters a little bit of a break on this because he's never really struggled at any level before AAA. So maybe he can make an adjustment when that happens. But it seems to me that he's relatively far off because of this issue.

Actually think this crazy summer might actually help shorten his timeline a little. With all the action coming in scrimmages, they're actually able to focus more on the things he needs to tighten up - as well as give him more ABs against Pitchers that throw the pitches they want him to work on recognizing, etc. - without him having any numbers in the back of his mind. Just work on cutting down the swing with two strikes, picking up the slider, what have you. He talked about that being the focus in an interview with Mayo a little while back.

You almost have to think that's part of the reason they say they've seen improvement from Wright and Folty and didn't pull the trigger on any kind of addition at the deadline as well. I'd imagine Folty and Wright have both been throwing TONS of fastballs (in addition to the grip or whatever change they've made to Wright's slider).

The way what few reports we've seen sounded, most of the simulated game action has been more "controlled scrimmage" as opposed to full-blown intrasquad games. Much more like an instructional league than actual competition. Combine that with the announcement that teams have been given the go-ahead to have their typical fall instructional period and that there will probably be an extended Arizona Fall League with more prospects than normal involved I think this mess could provide opportunities for the organization to be even a little more aggressive with some of the more advanced kids that were drafted last year like Harris and Grissom.

 

[50PoundHead]

I disagree, but I suppose Cleveland's opinion is the only one that matters on that. Naylor isn't much of a OFer though. At 5/11 250 (250 is being generous, imo) he's a 1b playing LF.

Naylor is probably a DH playing 1B.

 

[Super]

Waters was a 55 in 2019 for what it's worth. He also plays a premium defensive position while Naylor is a 1b. And of course, Waters is 21 compared to Naylor being 23. There's also the fact the Naylor has struggled in his cup of tea in the majors. It would seem Naylor's value is more similar to Riley's at the moment.

right...but he’s a 50 now due to his lack of discipline. Naylor was the same thing last year.

 

[Super]

I disagree, but I suppose Cleveland's opinion is the only one that matters on that. Naylor isn't much of a OFer though. At 5/11 250 (250 is being generous, imo) he's a 1b playing LF.

Waters is certainly not ready to play. he’d be awful.

 

[Carp]

right...but he’s a 50 now due to his lack of discipline. Naylor was the same thing last year.

Ok, but you can't compare Naylor are year ago to Waters now. The only reason Waters was downgraded was due to an overall downgrade of similar prospects. Naylor on the other hand has quite clearly lost some value since last year (same as Riley), as his perceived flaws as a prospect have been clearly exposed at the major league level. Combine that with being a year older and defensively limited, I think it's rather clear Waters should have more value than Naylor.

 

[Carp]

Waters is certainly not ready to play. he’d be awful.

I'm not going to say it's likely he'd be good, since most 21 year olds don't do well at the major league level. But he's clearly talented enough to do well. And certainly he should provide good defense at the very least. And it's not like Naylor has been tearing it up.

 

[Super]

I'm not going to say it's likely he'd be good, since most 21 year olds don't do well at the major league level. But he's clearly talented enough to do well. And certainly he should provide good defense at the very least. And it's not like Naylor has been tearing it up.

come on. Waters would get eaten alive at the plate if he got thrown into this season. he’d likely be an atrocious hitter.

 

[Super]

Ok, but you can't compare Naylor are year ago to Waters now. The only reason Waters was downgraded was due to an overall downgrade of similar prospects. Naylor on the other hand has quite clearly lost some value since last year (same as Riley), as his perceived flaws as a prospect have been clearly exposed at the major league level. Combine that with being a year older and defensively limited, I think it's rather clear Waters should have more value than Naylor.

i think people thought/think Naylor has a good chance to hit. that’s a huge question for Waters.
in any event, i don’t see their values as that different. that’s all.

 

[Heyward]

I think Waters could be good down the line but he is not ready now. Like i said before, Padres had more MLB guys to deal from than we did. Dont think Cleveland wanted prospects in 2-3 years.

I think when they deal Lindor this winter, they could want that though.

 

[Carp]

come on. Waters would get eaten alive at the plate if he got thrown into this season. he’d likely be an atrocious hitter.

Like most 21 year olds, that's likely true. Especially vs LHP since he has huge splits and hasn't seen any live pitching since ST. Though I think he'd be better vs RHP than you give him credit for, while again providing quality defense.

 

[Super]

Like most 21 year olds, that's likely true. Especially vs LHP since he has huge splits and hasn't seen any live pitching since ST. Though I think he'd be better vs RHP than you give him credit for, while again providing quality defense.

i don’t care about his age in this discussion, it’s about his readiness. his 400s BABIPs wouldn’t hold up in the MLB. he hits for little power while striking out a ton. he has tools offensively but few of them are present at the moment. Naylor is a far better bet to hold his own with the bat at this time, and it’s not close.
Waters is the definition of an especially risky prospect, which is why his FV was knocked down a peg. he would be a big negative for the Indians right now.

 

[clvclv]

come on. Waters would get eaten alive at the plate if he got thrown into this season. he’d likely be an atrocious hitter.

Sounds like what they apparently feel about Pache for those screaming about Ender.

 

[thewupk]

Sounds like what they apparently feel about Pache for those screaming about Ender.

Most people know Pache will not be good offensively right now. So the difference between the two is that Pache can actually play good defense right now.

Hopefully Acuna is good the rest of the way once he comes back and we don't have to worry about it. Seems like Duvall, Acuna, Markakis is how the OF will roll and it's hard to argue against it.

 

[bravesfanMatt]

Most people know Pache will not be good offensively right now. So the difference between the two is that Pache can actually play good defense right now.

Hopefully Acuna is good the rest of the way once he comes back and we don't have to worry about it. Seems like Duvall, Acuna, Markakis is how the OF will roll and it's hard to argue against it.

Right. Pache doesn’t solve anything as long as Acuna is healthy.

I guess maybe a platoon for Neck. But I am not sure he is good enough to be better than neck versus lefties.

 

[Freshmaker]

MAdams officially released (has been DFA’d)

 

[Enscheff]

i don’t care about his age in this discussion, it’s about his readiness. his 400s BABIPs wouldn’t hold up in the MLB. he hits for little power while striking out a ton. he has tools offensively but few of them are present at the moment. Naylor is a far better bet to hold his own with the bat at this time, and it’s not close.
Waters is the definition of an especially risky prospect, which is why his FV was knocked down a peg. he would be a big negative for the Indians right now.

I think the "MLB-ready" part is what a lot of folks are missing. The Indians were in an almost unprecedented position of a contender with a real surplus of MLB SPs (not a fanboi circle jerk surplus where fans write out some silly list of all 15 pitching prospects in the system and then beam with pride over how well they formatted it), while also being a clear cut playoff contender. They had to fill a spot in an atrocious OF with someone ready to play now, and their trade partner had to be a contender who needed an MLB SP while also having an extra MLB-caliber OFer.

That intersection of the team population is almost non-existent. Contenders can very rarely afford to deal away MLB players and still be contenders. I suppose Naylor from SD was the closest thing they could find, so that's the deal they struck. The fact SD had to send over so many other players tells you just how little value Naylor actually had by himself, but he can stand in Cleveland's OF right now, and hopefully hit a bit. That's something the Indians simply don't have right now.

I wonder how close they were to a 3 team swap where a non-contender sent the Indians an OFer in exchange for prospects from another contender who needed the SP (like the Braves). A deal like that had to have been better than Naylor.

 

[jpx7]

Right. Pache doesn’t solve anything as long as Acuna is healthy.

I guess maybe a platoon for Neck. But I am not sure he is good enough to be better than neck versus lefties.

Like others have said, we're likely going to see a Markakis–Acuña–Duvall alignment starting Friday; this is sub-optimal, in general, since it means Duvall regularly faces RHPs, and Markakis occasionally faces LHP starters and likely sees LHP relievers in key spots. It's also not the ideal defensive alignment for the OF. But obviously the Braves feel as skeptical as you that Pache can hit better against LHP than Markakis—who, fwiw, has actually killed LHPs this year, to the tune of 161 wrc+, versus 136 wrc+ against RHPs—so they're willing to make that "sacrifice" (along with the legitimate defensive sacrifice) and keep Pache down. This is probably the right move, tbh, given the paucity of LHP starters the Braves face this year, and the benefits of further delaying Pache's service time, plus having him regularly work on things at the alternate site, as opposed to riding the bench.

Obviously, they also feel Duvall is a better option against RHPs, even given his below-average career splits (91 wrc+ career versus RHPs), because he's at least got the power to do some damage (.460 SLG in his career versus RHPs); he's also been slightly above-average (104 wrc+) against RHPs this season—so, again, this is probably the right call.

The bigger, looming question is what to do with / about Inciarte. He's fine as a defensive replacement for now—his defense hasn't been as stellar as in the past, but he's still above-average, and late in games it's probably better to have him in CF, Acuña in RF, Duvall in LF, and Markakis on the bench. But next year is an entirely new question—and I have to admit, despite being a Inciarte defender (or, at least, a firm skeptic of a bottom-falling-out total decline), some of the numbers are starting to look abysmally worrying:

[tw]1300953556917329920[/tw]

Sure, even in those very good years now in the rear-view, his EVs were only around 82-83 mph. But losing a full five mph from that—falling sub-Foltynewicz in terms of hard-hit balls—doesn't seem remotely viable for major-league PAs. Like, maybe Fried should hit and Ozuna DH for Inciarte-territory.

 

[MadduxFanII]

The fact that Inciarte's exit velocity is slower than the speed a halfway-decent car can reach on a stretch of open highway without much strain on the engine is pretty depressing.

 

[jpx7]

The fact that Inciarte's exit velocity is slower than the speed a halfway-decent car can reach on a stretch of open highway without much strain on the engine is pretty depressing.

It's a couple ticks below the speed-limit on interstate highways here in Montana.

 

[NYCBrave]

Like others have said, we're likely going to see a Markakis–Acuña–Duvall alignment starting Friday; this is sub-optimal, in general, since it means Duvall regularly faces RHPs, and Markakis occasionally faces LHP starters and likely sees LHP relievers in key spots. It's also not the ideal defensive alignment for the OF. But obviously the Braves feel as skeptical as you that Pache can hit better against LHP than Markakis—who, fwiw, has actually killed LHPs this year, to the tune of 161 wrc+, versus 136 wrc+ against RHPs—so they're willing to make that "sacrifice" (along with the legitimate defensive sacrifice) and keep Pache down. This is probably the right move, tbh, given the paucity of LHP starters the Braves face this year, and the benefits of further delaying Pache's service time, plus having him regularly work on things at the alternate site, as opposed to riding the bench.

Obviously, they also feel Duvall is a better option against RHPs, even given his below-average career splits (91 wrc+ career versus RHPs), because he's at least got the power to do some damage (.460 SLG in his career versus RHPs); he's also been slightly above-average (104 wrc+) against RHPs this season—so, again, this is probably the right call.

The bigger, looming question is what to do with / about Inciarte. He's fine as a defensive replacement for now—his defense hasn't been as stellar as in the past, but he's still above-average, and late in games it's probably better to have him in CF, Acuña in RF, Duvall in LF, and Markakis on the bench. But next year is an entirely new question—and I have to admit, despite being a Inciarte defender (or, at least, a firm skeptic of a bottom-falling-out total decline), some of the numbers are starting to look abysmally worrying:

[tw]1300953556917329920[/tw]

Sure, even in those very good years now in the rear-view, his EVs were only around 82-83 mph. But losing a full five mph from that—falling sub-Foltynewicz in terms of hard-hit balls—doesn't seem remotely viable for major-league PAs. Like, maybe Fried should hit and Ozuna DH for Inciarte-territory.

Good analysis. As far as Markakis vs lefties, I'm not sure we will even see another lefty starter this season. Nats just have Corbin. Mets have 1 maybe with Peterson. Marlins I don't think have one. Orioles I'm not sure do either. The only problem is when Markakis is up later in the game and has to face a tough lefty reliever. I believe the Phillies succeeded doing this and killed at least one rally.