Global Events & Politics Überthread

[The Tariff King]

I'm actually glad Cernovich posted something so stupid about Trump flattering Putin.

Because it just contradicts this stupid narrative that Putin was scared of him.

 

[thethe]

All Chamberlain had to do was flatter Hitler.

Such a hysterically bad analogy.

Do you want to compare the actions of Hitler and Putin both domestically and Internafionally?

Media has really trained you guys well to be even able to make you think of such a comparison.

 

[thethe]

I'm actually glad Cernovich posted something so stupid about Trump flattering Putin.

Because it just contradicts this stupid narrative that Putin was scared of him.

It’s actually a part of the piece of being unpredictable. You guy will believe anything negative about trump that is “said” but not his threat to Putin if he moved in Ukraine. Funny how that works. In reality your responses just goes with the theme of trying to ensure people don’t see how Trump and his team were infinitely better at their jobs than the communist trash you support. Have fun in the midterms!

But sure. Continue to trash Putin at all times in the media and see where that gets you. Why don’t you guys create another collusion hoax next time with desabtis to explain how the American people don’t like your policies anymore.


I could see it now in the late 30s early 40s with some of you. How could we ever work with Stalin?!?!?!?

We have learned who the children are when it comes to geopolitics. I can’t work with the bad man!!!

 

[thethe]

“Putin apologist” is the new “racist”

Nobody wants to talk about the realities of how we got here. Sign of immaturity.

 

[thethe]

[tw]1501018403703824388[/tw]

Thank god for people like Tucker.

 

[nsacpi]

“Putin apologist” is the new “racist”

Nobody wants to talk about the realities of how we got here. Sign of immaturity.

Enough with the whining, grievance, and self-pity.

Be a mensch.

For once.

 

[thethe]

Enough with the whining, grievance, and self-pity.

Be a mensch.

For once.

Debate how we got here as opposed to just saying Putin is a bad man and is always wrong. Then you'll show that you aren't falling into the crowd that yells 'Putin Apologist'!

I distinctly remembered being called a 'Putin Puppet' when I dared challenge the narrative that Trump colluded with Russia. How did that one work out?

 

[nsacpi]

Debate how we got here as opposed to just saying Putin is a bad man and is always wrong.

Yes. My take. Cliff notes version.

1) Ukraine has long struggled to free itself of a corrupt, kleptocratic ruling class that features many of the same characteristics of Putin's Russia.

2) As an aside, it should be noted that Pavel Manafartov had a lucrative long-standing business helping this kleptocratic ruling class maintain its hold on power.

3) Lo and behold, the Ukrainian people (with great difficulty and in ways that remain imperfect and incomplete) have made a start in their arduous efforts to move away from that model

4) This is intolerable to Vlad the Bad

5) The threat of a successful, democratic, western-oriented Ukraine looms so large in Vlad the Bad's grievance-filled and paranoid brain that he decided to embark upon this disastrous and yes oppressive AND tyrannical invasion. It is uniquely oppressive AND tyrannical because it sees Ukraine moving toward a more liberal system of government (like say Australia, Canada and New Zealand to toss out a few rando names) as a mortal threat to Putinist Russsia that has to be crushed at all costs.

 

[thethe]

Yes. My take. Cliff notes version.

1) Ukraine has long struggled to free itself of a corrupt, kleptocratic ruling class that features many of the same characteristics of Putin's Russia.

2) As an aside, it should be noted that Pavel Manafartov had a lucrative long-standing business helping this kleptocratic ruling class maintain its hold on power.

3) Lo and behold, the Ukrainian people (with great difficulty and in ways that remain imperfect and incomplete) have made a start in their arduous efforts to move away from that model

4) This is intolerable to Vlad the Bad

5) The threat of a successful, democratic, western-oriented Ukraine looms so large in Vlad the Bad's grievance-filled and paranoid brain that he decided to embark upon this disastrous and yes oppressive AND tyrannical invasion.

Excellent - So you are now putting yourself in the mind of the enemy. Do you think its wise to antagonize said enemy when they have a nuclear arsenal?

Couple of points (no relation to your bullets):

1) What are your thoughts to the West's involvement in the color revolution that took place in Ukraine in 2014 because they didn't like a Putin puppet 'won' a democratic election?
2) What evidence exists that this wasn't hte will of the Ukrainian people at the time?
3) How much of the Ukrainian people want to be part of the west? What about the portions of Ukraine that think differently?
4) To go along with your (1) - Do you think the West has taken advantage of this for their own benefit to the detriment of both the Ukrainian people and relations with a nucelar power?

 

[thethe]

And of course we should add - How much of the Wests insistence on going green changed the calculus in Putins mind to invade?

 

[nsacpi]

Excellent - So you are now putting yourself in the mind of the enemy. Do you think its wise to antagonize said enemy when they have a nuclear arsenal?

Of course not. Anyone with half a brain should be able to see this is a very dangerous situation and needs to be handled with great care.

I'm a discussion board warrior and can throw verbal darts at Vlad the Bad. People in position of responsibility should not indulge in such pleasures.

 

[thethe]

Of course not. Anyone with half a brain should be able to see this is a very dangerous situation and needs to be handled with great care.

I'm a discussion board warrior and can throw verbal darts at Vlad the Bad. People in position of responsibility should not indulge in such pleasures.

So then you agree that pushing what was always intended to be a 'neutral' country barrier between the EU/NATO and Russia towards the EU is antagonizing and should have been handled with more care?

What benefit to Europe exists for Ukraine to be part of the EU. Now weigh those benefits against the risks (hindsight in this situation is available and of course is always 20/20).

 

[nsacpi]

1) What are your thoughts to the West's involvement in the color revolution that took place in Ukraine in 2014 because they didn't like a Putin puppet 'won' a democratic election?

We have to stay true to our values and encourage movements toward more democratic and open forms of government. There are steps we can reasonably take that reassure Russia that Ukraine will not represent a security threat. I don't think there is much we can do to reassure Putin. It is important to distinguish Russia's legitimate security concerns from Putin's, which would allow no space for the Ukrainian people to chose a more liberal western-oriented system. The latter is not a threat to Russia. It is a threat to Putin's system. I don't think we can accommodate the latter without entering appeasement territory. You treat someone like Putin with care, but you don't give in to him and you certainly don't adopt his way of looking at things as yours.

 

[nsacpi]

So then you agree that pushing what was always intended to be a 'neutral' country barrier between the EU/NATO and Russia towards the EU is antagonizing and should have been handled with more care?

What benefit to Europe exists for Ukraine to be part of the EU. Now weigh those benefits against the risks (hindsight in this situation is available and of course is always 20/20).

To put it in simple terms: there should be no impediment to Ukraine joining the EU, but NATO membership should be ruled out. They should be able to join the EU if that is what they want.

I don't think membership in NATO should be in the cards. We should make that clear. There is an ambiguity there that should be cleared up. At the same time, after this invasion we need to supply Ukraine with all the military and other assistance they need. There are things beyond what we are currently doing that we could do (though some of that should be held in reserve depending upon whether Putin escalates things).

It is important to understand the EU/NATO distinction. EU membership is a statement about economic and political orientation. Russia should have no veto upon that orientation. NATO is a military alliance (albeit a defensive one). That one could be argued either way, but we should try where reasonably possible to accommodate concerns a non-paranoid non-kleptocratic Russian government might have. It is a sort of reasonable man standard.

 

[thethe]

We have to stay true to our values and encourage movements toward more democratic and open forms of government. There are steps we can reasonably take that reassure Russia that Ukraine will not represent a security threat. I don't think there is much we can do to reassure Putin. It is important to distinguish Russia's legitimate security concerns from Putin's, which would allow no space for the Ukrainian people to chose a more liberal western-oriented system. The latter is not a threat to Russia. It is a threat to Putin's system. I don't think we can accommodate the latter without entering appeasement territory. You treat someone like Putin with care, but you don't give in to him and you certainly don't adopt his way of looking at things as yours.

The world is messy. There is a price to pay for pushing Democracy despite it being the right way for people to live and prosper. We can encourage it but we can't play regime change politics and you know what happened in Ukraine in 2014. The West got what they wanted. Yanukovych was obviously a Putin puppet but there is a price to pay for clearly contributing to the revolution that pushed him out of power.

How did the spread of Democracy work in the middle east? To pretend this should be our singular focus invites more global conflict.

 

[thethe]

To put it in simple and simplistic terms. There should be no impediment to Ukraine joining the EU, if that is what they want and if they meet the requirements other countries have to meet. That's their sovereign right.

I don't think membership in NATO should be in the cards. We should make that clear. There is an ambiguity there that should be cleared up. At the same time, after this invasion we need to supply Ukraine with all the military and other assistance they need.

I'm just not sure symbolically there is a difference between the EU/NATO. Of course one is a economic partnership while the other is militaristic in nature but it strikes at the same vein. Neither will go over well with a man (this is even excluding something very adversarial like arming the Ukrainians to the teeth) like Putin that has delusions of grandor to bring together the Soviet Union and cement his legacy.

 

[nsacpi]

I'm just not sure symbolically there is a difference between the EU/NATO.

I added a bit on my previous post on how I see the distinction between the two.

 

[thethe]

I added a bit on my previous post on how I see the distinction between the two.

I noted it and I think we are aligned on what the difference is schematically. I just try to look at what it would mean through the eyes of someone like Putin and how he would play up a EU membership to his people and win the information war so that his tyrannical ventures hold more support with his people.

 

[zitothebrave]

amazing 4D chess by Trump.

talk smack about your allies, appease and flatter authoritarians.

China really showed the Trumps how afraid they were of him by approving all of his trademark requests in the middle of the farmer tariff war

The fact that thethe takes his political and news tips from a former pickup artist who gained wealth from marrying and divorcing a wealthy attorney, is all you need to know to never take him seriously.

 

[nsacpi]

I noted it and I think we are aligned on what the difference is schematically. I just try to look at what it would mean through the eyes of someone like Putin and how he would play up a EU membership to his people and win the information war so that his tyrannical ventures hold more support with his people.

I understand perfectly well how this looks through the eyes of Putin. We should try to see things as he sees them. But not for the purpose of accommodating his wishes.