Rosenthal: Braves players frustrated with Fredi; he has "lost the clubhouse"
- Thread starter dak
- Start date
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
I'm just not sure how he could be even partially responsible for the injuries.
sturg33
I
He changed the throwing program left by Leo rather dramatically. Leo'd guys stayed pretty healthy if I recall
yeezus
It's OVER 5,000!
I'm just not sure how much this actually means and how it causes injuries. there's nothing that says it causes them.
57Brave
Well-known member
Also point out there have been turnover at the 3rd Base coaching box, 1B coaching box. 3 different sets of Hitting coaches, manager and bench coach
I'm not advocating firing McD, though I think a thorough house cleaning is warranted, I just wonder how he's gotten a free pass all these years.
End of last season when I first put up the notion of firing the entire coaching staff it was as if I asked Taylor Swift to show her tits
I'm not advocating firing McD, though I think a thorough house cleaning is warranted, I just wonder how he's gotten a free pass all these years.
End of last season when I first put up the notion of firing the entire coaching staff it was as if I asked Taylor Swift to show her tits
This makes all the sense in the world, no???
Of course using this line of thinking means several organizations need to fire their Pitching Coaches too.
It's GOT to be Dan Warthen's fault that Matt Harvey and Zach Wheeler blew their elbows out. He was bound to be behind Buddy Carlyle's torn labrum and Rafael Montero's shoulder inflamation. You just KNOW his program caused Bobby Parnell's injury and inability to get his velocity back. Jerry Blevins? No doubt Warthen had a hand in that.
The Rangers ought to run Mike Maddux out of town in a hurry. After all, it's HIS fault Derek Holland's never healthy. Yu Darvish, Martin Perez, Neftali Feliz - Maddux has done his dead-level best to make sure Texas never gets anything out of their Pitchers. Won't be long before he ends Hamels' career. *ell, he's probably the real reason Jurickson Profar's gone from consensus #1 prospect in the game to bust since he's overseeing HIS throwing program, and he's not even a Pitcher.
Blaming the Pitching Coach for injuries is almost as comical as blaming a sitting President for the stock market's ups-and-downs. Or gas prices. Or any of another countless many things for that matter.
sturg33
I
Leo had a very unique throwing program and had a nice stable of healthy pitchers for over a decade.
Pretty much every pitcher we've had in the last few years has had a major injury
50PoundHead
Hessmania Forever
Leo also had a stable of superb athletes on his pitching staff plus Glavine and Maddux weren't power pitchers. Leo's two most notable power pitchers--Avery and Smoltz--ended up having arm problems and Pete Smith also had arm trouble while under Leo's tutelage. Leo was a very good pitching coach, but he didn't walk on water.
Millwood1Hitter
Anytime Now Frankie...
Why would anyone ever accuse you of doing that? In fact, why would anyone even consider such a thing? You'd be better just taking a piece of plywood and mounting 2 pepperoni's on it and starring at it.
bravesnumberone
Well-known member
Many of the reasons for guys throwing their arms out, the primary ones even, exist before any MLB scouts get a look at guys.
I'm not going to give McDowell a "free pass," but this thread is supposed to be about Fredi. He is an awful manager. He doesn't have much at all to work with this year, but he still makes piss-poor decisions and now there are more rumblings that he's lost the clubhouse. Rosenthal isn't a Braves beat writer. It's not like he's pulling things out of his ass to fill newspaper space.
I'm not going to give McDowell a "free pass," but this thread is supposed to be about Fredi. He is an awful manager. He doesn't have much at all to work with this year, but he still makes piss-poor decisions and now there are more rumblings that he's lost the clubhouse. Rosenthal isn't a Braves beat writer. It's not like he's pulling things out of his ass to fill newspaper space.
sturg33
I
I mean, over the course of 15 years, players are going to get hurt. Not saying Mazonne walked on water, but in general, his pitchers stayed healthy.
The Braves injuries have been frequent, and significant. I know we as an organization lead the majors by far in TJ surgeries. Nobody know if it is conincidence or not, but we'd be dumb not to look at it
Shoulda fired him for that, no? (Following the "it's the Coach's fault" mantra of course.)
There's no concrete evidence for anyone to point to, but I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that there's very little chance today's power pitches could possibly handle Leo's throwing program. They've got way too many miles on their arms at younger ages and the high school and college levels when the Coaches have either no clue what the long-term harm they're doing to them is or they simply don't care.
Many of the Pitchers who excel at the college level are often allowed to throw 130-150 pitches regularly. Their Coaches get paid to win games, not baby Pitchers. I watched Andrew Miller and Carlos Rodon closely when they were at Carolina and State, and the way the were abused bordered on criminal negligence. It ruined Miller - he's no longer capable of being a starter no matter how successful he is out of the pen at this level. He's been extremely lucky that he made it to last offseason so he could score at least one good contract. At one point during the College World Series, he was used on 2 days rest after throwing 140+ pitches. It's just a matter of time for Rodon too.
dak
Well-known member
This is disappointing . . .
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer...whats-the-deal-on-harvey-cespedes-mets-future
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer...whats-the-deal-on-harvey-cespedes-mets-future
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Valid point.
I wonder why we don't long toss more? Like as a sport in general. I would think using an offday or 2 to long toss would be intelligent.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Leo had the benefit of having a stable of amazing pitchers.
Maddux had perfect Mechanics, Glavine had good mechanics. Smoltz had arm issues, Millwood had solid mechanics. How many other guys did he have for multiple years? Avery who's arm was wrecked. After those 5, every other pitcher Mazzone had for under 500 innings. Which is basically less than 2 and a half years. Tommy Hanson looked like a healthy starter for 2 and a half years.
The advantage that Leo had with those younger pitchers was familiarity with them from shared time during minor league days. Leo also was a genius at veteran re-tread reclamation projects, as we all know. Unfortunately, he didn't seem to be able to relate well to younger pitchers, after his own minor league days. Having said that, McDowell lacks much of a track record for reclamation projects.
Yes, if a pitcher excelled under Leo, he had nothing to do with it. If a pitcher spent time on the DL, it was entirely Leo's fault.
zitothebrave
Connoisseur of Minors
Never said that even a little.
I think pitching coaches have little effect on a pitchers health unless they alter someone's mechanics. The main job of a pitchign coach is essentially to be a psychiatrist and watch for changes in mechanics. And a few other things of course as well.
Agreed, and that was the reason for quoting. If one of the resident sabermetricians wants to contribute something more valuable than Google links to geekball websites, it might be valuable to compare statistics of lost DL time among active pitching coaches. That way, some sort of distinction can be made as to the specific pitching coaches philosophies being preached, which are resulting in more ACL tears. Instinct here is that it's relative similar across the major leagues, but some substantive proof would put the matter to rest.