jpx7
Very Flirtatious, but Doubts What Love Is.
Who would you nominate for the best pitching-coach of all time?
SB Nation Profile of Leo Mazzone
- Thread starter MadduxFanII
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Who would you nominate for the best pitching-coach of all time?
weso1
<B>Clique Leader</B>
Found this little nugget whilest perusing wikipedia. Rock me back and forth endlessly if it's already been posted itt.
In his book The Baseball Economist, J.C. Bradbury titles a chapter, "How Good is Leo Mazzone?" Using statistical analysis, he analyzes whether Mazzone had a significant impact upon the pitchers that he coached. The sample is all pitchers who have pitched at least one year under Mazzone and one year under a different pitching coach. Bradbury found that Mazzone lowered the ERA of pitchers by an average of 0.64 points, and that after leaving Mazzone, pitchers' ERA increased by an average of 0.78 points. Bradbury believes that such an impact is deserving of Hall of Fame consideration.
In his book The Baseball Economist, J.C. Bradbury titles a chapter, "How Good is Leo Mazzone?" Using statistical analysis, he analyzes whether Mazzone had a significant impact upon the pitchers that he coached. The sample is all pitchers who have pitched at least one year under Mazzone and one year under a different pitching coach. Bradbury found that Mazzone lowered the ERA of pitchers by an average of 0.64 points, and that after leaving Mazzone, pitchers' ERA increased by an average of 0.78 points. Bradbury believes that such an impact is deserving of Hall of Fame consideration.
About 3 times earlier in this thread already.
Whomever the two Johns think it is.
weso1
<B>Clique Leader</B>
I have no clue but from reading some of the posters thoughts no nomination or votes are needed.
Campillo and Sosa was under Roger I believe. Damn remember when HoRam was too much to pay the Expos for Vazquez. Have to wonder what Vazquez career would have looked like if he came to Atl instead of NY
for me that was Dennis Martinez And later Mullholland. Had no idea how either got anyone out , they would always seem to be a train wreck waiting to happen, but somehow they got out of the inning. The only more painful memory is watching Wohlers pitch after he forgot how to throw strikes. Was there any thought on what happened to him other then Leyritz?
Sosa was Mazzone's last year here in 2005.
Ahh just remembered Sosa's nickname : Houdini.
Campillo was. Sosa wasn't.
Toward the end of Leo's tenure, there was talk that he couldn't relate to younger pitchers, specifically Marquis and Spooneybarger were named. However, he at least had a track record over time in dealing with younger pitchers.
It seems like the magic that Dave Duncan worked tended to be with veteran pitchers, as well, esp. if there had been at least some previous success. In Oakland, that was Dave Stewart and Bob Welch. Maybe it's a personal thing, but it always made me wonder what the exact cause was of the total regression with Todd Van Poppel. This guy was next in line among Texas fireballers after Ryan, Clemens and before Kerry Wood (but carrying A LOT more intial hype). Yeah, there was an injury, but the kid never recovered and developed into anything close to what he was supposed to become. IIRC, on the downside of his career, he was a reliever with the Pirates when nobody wanted to go to Pittsburgh.
Somebody messed up that situation in a very big way. It's not to specially single out Duncan, but that had to have reflected negatively on the A's org. The Braves didn't have any pitching prospects of that stature (ie #1 overall) during that era. So, there's no point of comparison. Glavine & Smoltz were highly regarded but not advertised as staff ace material, let alone future HOFers, when they were moving through the system. Avery, Llliquist and Mercker even had higher draft positions. Of that group, Avery was the one who was most considered "can't miss" from draft through major league debut.
It seems like the magic that Dave Duncan worked tended to be with veteran pitchers, as well, esp. if there had been at least some previous success. In Oakland, that was Dave Stewart and Bob Welch. Maybe it's a personal thing, but it always made me wonder what the exact cause was of the total regression with Todd Van Poppel. This guy was next in line among Texas fireballers after Ryan, Clemens and before Kerry Wood (but carrying A LOT more intial hype). Yeah, there was an injury, but the kid never recovered and developed into anything close to what he was supposed to become. IIRC, on the downside of his career, he was a reliever with the Pirates when nobody wanted to go to Pittsburgh.
Somebody messed up that situation in a very big way. It's not to specially single out Duncan, but that had to have reflected negatively on the A's org. The Braves didn't have any pitching prospects of that stature (ie #1 overall) during that era. So, there's no point of comparison. Glavine & Smoltz were highly regarded but not advertised as staff ace material, let alone future HOFers, when they were moving through the system. Avery, Llliquist and Mercker even had higher draft positions. Of that group, Avery was the one who was most considered "can't miss" from draft through major league debut.
Good call.
Reading about trading HoRam reminded me of when the Braves moved him for Rafael Soriano, which ended up being a pretty good one for Schuerhol despite the grousing on Fanhome. Almost all the good from that deal was erased when Wren totally miscalculated on Soriano accepting arbitration after signing Billy Wagner and Takashi Saito and was forced to air mail him to Tampa for Jesse Chavez -- who amounted to nothing as a Brave, and went to Kansas City for Ankiel/Farnsworth, but has gone on to be pretty useful for the Athletics the past two seasons.
Millwood mentioned Andy Ashby earlier. I remember finding out about that trade when I got my baseball news/rumors from the radio (One on One Sports Flash). IIRC the Braves were also heavy on Curt Schilling for a while. This was the same year that Napster exploded (and the Braves also traded for ****ing BJ Surhoff). Good times.
Julio3000
<B>A Chip Off the Old Rock</B>
My recollection of that year was that the Braves were after an impact SP that year. They telegraphed that they were going to add a starter at the deadline. Expectations were high, then . . . Andy Ashby. Leo Mazzone, Dave Duncan, and Johnny Sain couldn't have done anything with that.
Metaphysicist
Not Actually Brian Hunter
Smoltz has explicitly stated that the Tigers changed up his pitches and mechanics, which messed him up six ways to Sunday, and that Mazzone got him back to his natural motion and taught him the breaking ball he relied on at the beginning of his career.
I don't think Leo deserves credit for Smoltz's whole career (obviously, Smoltz is the guy who has to do all the actually work), but it's definitely worth at least a feather in his cap.
Metaphysicist
Not Actually Brian Hunter
We don't have to question anything or make up hypotheticals to serve our points. Smoltz has specifically named Mazzone as the guy who helped him after the Braves acquired him. Smoltz talks about it in the foreword to Mazzone's book, which the former wrote.
Metaphysicist
Not Actually Brian Hunter
Except Smoltz specifically named Leo as "the guy." So, you are wrong.
Perfect Cell
Lynchburg Prospect
by my recolecction the deal of horam was met with positive response.
Could have sworn that Ashby's first two starts we're scoreless including a cg shutout seem to remember after that him being a train wreck
Millwood1Hitter
Anytime Now Frankie...
Everyone points to the Drew and Tex trades as when JS lost it, but thrush be told he was mediocre starting in spring training 1997 and was an absolute train wreck at the beginning of the century. I can elaborate but I really don't want to go there, but the guy lived off of the magic and success of the first half decade of time here, any other GM would have and should have been fired for the performance that then ensued with the lack of foresight and failure to put together a complete team despite an upper echelon payroll and good farm system.