What's next?

Ender needs to stay unless we get a huge offer from the cubs in position prospects.

I'd like the next moves to be Aybar and Markakis moving on for at least a B prospect.
 
The Braves asked for cf'er back in every rumored trade for Miller so I don't see them having much faith in Mallex. I'd keep Inciarte.

I think they have plenty of faith in him but he's still really young and hasn't seen MLB pitching. He was never just going to start out with the job.
 
It's funny how the same people who are saying Heyward isn't that valuable... is falling all over themselves over Ender's value

People still don't want to commit to not being good in 2016. They are holding out hope that actual better baseball will be played. But, even 81-81 (not reachable anyway by this team, with or without Inciarte, Teheran, Freeman, Markakis, Aybar) is useless as far as actually winning anything. Why not accept the medicine and accompanying short term pain and get cured instead of fighting a long term struggling battle over several years without ever really kicking the illness?
 
Why did it not make sense to get Inciarte back in a deal? He's a very good CF who is under control for 5 years...that's exactly what we needed.

The reports were we were looking for a RH hitting CF in the beginning. IMO we just couldn't pass up the deal, so we got Ender back knowing there were teams we talked to earlier when shopping Maybin, and we have a plan to circle back to one of them with an asset more attractive than Maybin. I think the offseason is still very much in the infancy stage, and we love to play the flip game.
 
People still don't want to commit to not being good in 2016. They are holding out hope that actual better baseball will be played. But, even 81-81 (not reachable anyway by this team, with or without Inciarte, Teheran, Freeman, Markakis, Aybar) is useless as far as actually winning anything. Why not accept the medicine and accompanying short term pain and get cured instead of fighting a long term struggling battle over several years without ever really kicking the illness?

Just because you might suck in 2016 doesn't mean you have to dump everyone this offseason.. There is nothing wrong with holding on to Freeman/Julio/Ender to see how the first half of 2016 plays out. sure you risk losing value in these assets..but sometimes you have to hold on them to see if other pieces fill in. sure our need might be, lets say, 3B.. So we trade for a stud young 3 baseman that would be ready in 17.. well Adonis has a break out season and two pitching prospect go down with TJS..and 2 more regress.. Now you find yourself with 2 position players that are not needed and Pitching depth issues.
Very basic example but the jist is, it may be worth holding on to some of our remaining assets, not because we think we can win.. but to see what we have in those assets and see where our needs are going to develop over time.. Having a defensive center fielder who can hit to some degree is a nice asset.. maybe we want to hold this for a few years to see how the rest of the pieces develop around him. Julio is young and primed for a rebound.. maybe holding him is better because you can try to build his value and have a inexpensive safety net incase some of the pitching blows up..FF is getting expensive and injury is a big concern.. but his contract is no longer crippling because you shed so much other money.. Holding him to see if he continues to grow and there is no better option for the foreseeable future.
 
It's funny how the same people who are saying Heyward isn't that valuable... is falling all over themselves over Ender's value

Nobody thinks Heyward isn't valuable. The debate comes in when he has a $23M salary attached to his production. So yes, some people love Ender when factoring in the type of player they both are and the cost for each
 
The reports were we were looking for a RH hitting CF in the beginning. IMO we just couldn't pass up the deal, so we got Ender back knowing there were teams we talked to earlier when shopping Maybin, and we have a plan to circle back to one of them with an asset more attractive than Maybin. I think the offseason is still very much in the infancy stage, and we love to play the flip game.

Agreed. I would be very happy hanging onto Inciarte and having him in our OF for years. But he's got a lot of value right now. Swanson and Blair were the major pieces in this deal so if we can continue to grow the return on Shelby by shopping Inciarte I'm all for it. If we can get a potential middle of the order power bat like Soler I do it in a heartbeat. If we can spin Inciarte for a young high upside power pitcher I do it too (maybe Zack Wheeler?). My point is I think it's very smart to shop/listen on Inciarte to see what we can get.

I also think we match up with the Cubs if we don't get Baez or Soler. They have a loaded farm system that I would love to target.
 
There are still a lot of FA outfielders out there. Once those guys start signing I think we could see a market open up for Nick and Ender.
 
Just because you might suck in 2016 doesn't mean you have to dump everyone this offseason.. There is nothing wrong with holding on to Freeman/Julio/Ender to see how the first half of 2016 plays out. sure you risk losing value in these assets..but sometimes you have to hold on them to see if other pieces fill in. sure our need might be, lets say, 3B.. So we trade for a stud young 3 baseman that would be ready in 17.. well Adonis has a break out season and two pitching prospect go down with TJS..and 2 more regress.. Now you find yourself with 2 position players that are not needed and Pitching depth issues.
Very basic example but the jist is, it may be worth holding on to some of our remaining assets, not because we think we can win.. but to see what we have in those assets and see where our needs are going to develop over time.. Having a defensive center fielder who can hit to some degree is a nice asset.. maybe we want to hold this for a few years to see how the rest of the pieces develop around him. Julio is young and primed for a rebound.. maybe holding him is better because you can try to build his value and have a inexpensive safety net incase some of the pitching blows up..FF is getting expensive and injury is a big concern.. but his contract is no longer crippling because you shed so much other money.. Holding him to see if he continues to grow and there is no better option for the foreseeable future.

Agree to a point. But I think you make everyone available for the right deal. And you, as GM, don't need to just sit back and wait on the right deal. You see if you can market to the right deal.

Some guys like Teheran MIGHT actually gain value (or they might get hurt or lose performance and lose value). Same goes for Freeman. But, part of their value is tied up in affordable control and the longer you hold them the less valuable that aspect becomes.

Some guys like Aybar and Markakis are what they are and will likely only get worse because of their age, with the possible exception that Markakis may regain some marginal power (which has never been his game). They are likely as valuable as they will ever be as far as performance. Now, Markakis might bring more in return at the deadline from a contender who has an emergency.

Inciarte is coming in from a pretty good hitters park where he was surrounded by good outfielders (he won't be in Atlanta) and good hitters (he won't be in Atlanta). It's very possible his value will decline even if he personally doesn't simply because he is going to a bad team.

The whole "won't move him unless blown away" is just GM speak to make the fans think that the return is awesome no matter what the return really is and to signal to any suitor teams to not come looking for a bargain. That's fine. But don't overplay your hand either.

As an example of what I am talking about Coppy should be calling target teams about Freeman and proposing deals along the following lines:

Freeman to Houston for 1B Reed, OF Tucker and 3B Davis
Freeman to Cleveland for OF Frazier, OF Naquin, 1B Bradley
Freeman to Pittsburg for OF Meadows, 1B Bell, OF Garcia

All those teams need a guy like Freeman and all could do the above trades without destroying their short or long term outlooks. Would they do it? Maybe not. But three teams is three times the opportunity to get something done.

You could also look to move "packages" such as Inciarte and Teheran where together they bring back more than you could get by moving each separately.

Even if you couldn't get Soler and Baez for Inciarte and Teheran (and I think you could), the Cubs still have a lot to offer. Maybe something like: Inciarte and Teheran for OF Almora, OF Happ, C Contreras, OF Jimenez, 3B Candelario

The thing is you don't HAVE to move any. But to just close up shop for the year and say we've done enough without knowing what might be available is a mistake for a team in the position that the Braves are currently in.
 
People still don't want to commit to not being good in 2016. They are holding out hope that actual better baseball will be played. But, even 81-81 (not reachable anyway by this team, with or without Inciarte, Teheran, Freeman, Markakis, Aybar) is useless as far as actually winning anything. Why not accept the medicine and accompanying short term pain and get cured instead of fighting a long term struggling battle over several years without ever really kicking the illness?

Because this is my last chance to see live games in person here in Atlanta before the Braves move to the southern Chattanooga suburbs, and I hope to catch at least a few wins.
 
As an example of what I am talking about Coppy should be calling target teams about Freeman and proposing deals along the following lines:

Freeman to Houston for 1B Reed, OF Tucker and 3B Davis
Freeman to Cleveland for OF Frazier, OF Naquin, 1B Bradley
Freeman to Pittsburg for OF Meadows, 1B Bell, OF Garcia

All those teams need a guy like Freeman and all could do the above trades without destroying their short or long term outlooks. Would they do it? Maybe not. But three teams is three times the opportunity to get something done.

You could also look to move "packages" such as Inciarte and Teheran where together they bring back more than you could get by moving each separately.

Even if you couldn't get Soler and Baez for Inciarte and Teheran (and I think you could), the Cubs still have a lot to offer. Maybe something like: Inciarte and Teheran for OF Almora, OF Happ, C Contreras, OF Jimenez, 3B Candelario

The thing is you don't HAVE to move any. But to just close up shop for the year and say we've done enough without knowing what might be available is a mistake for a team in the position that the Braves are currently in.

risks are a part of every decisions.. you can't say Julio might do this or that.. you have to look at what is known.. he has pitched well since being in the league.. bad first half.. His stats will tell you what will most likely happen.. if he blows out his arm or ruptures a tendon covering first.. then you deal with it..
Also not sure any of those teams deal that much for Freeman.. I think too many ?? float around FF for that kind of return.. could be wrong though..

also, would love the second cub trade.. Eloy, Contreras, candelario will be very good and are very expendable.. however, I think the cubs are looking to move Baez and/or soler if they have to.. Soler scares me and intrigues me all at the same time.. he could be just another guy who can hit 20+ homers but that Ks 170 times and hits .250 or lower.. or he could be like the post season and Minor league guy.. I guess that is why I like the second trade better.. more pieces that have that upside so your eggs are spread out..
 
risks are a part of every decisions.. you can't say Julio might do this or that.. you have to look at what is known.. he has pitched well since being in the league.. bad first half.. His stats will tell you what will most likely happen.. if he blows out his arm or ruptures a tendon covering first.. then you deal with it..
Also not sure any of those teams deal that much for Freeman.. I think too many ?? float around FF for that kind of return.. could be wrong though..

also, would love the second cub trade.. Eloy, Contreras, candelario will be very good and are very expendable.. however, I think the cubs are looking to move Baez and/or soler if they have to.. Soler scares me and intrigues me all at the same time.. he could be just another guy who can hit 20+ homers but that Ks 170 times and hits .250 or lower.. or he could be like the post season and Minor league guy.. I guess that is why I like the second trade better.. more pieces that have that upside so your eggs are spread out..

I can agree with this.

I guess I am just more aggressive with the rebuild than most want to be. I just don't see mediocrity as being any better than a short term terrible if short term terrible leads to sustained greatness within a few years.
 
I can agree with this.

I guess I am just more aggressive with the rebuild than most want to be. I just don't see mediocrity as being any better than a short term terrible if short term terrible leads to sustained greatness within a few years.

you and I have agreed more than not.. I am on record as to wanting to go all in on the rebuild.. I am for trading Freeman and Julio if the package is right.. and like you.. I would ask a club for that package. I guess that means I am shopping X player.. fine put a label on it.. but it doesn't mean I am trading them unless I get what I want. I would be patient and see what desperation happens at the deadline. I would have Starters/hitters/bench guys/closer/vet bull pen guys.. I would open it up for trade talks.. it might cause a rift with the fans.. but they will live..

that being said, I am also not going to set back my planned compete date any farther than necessary.. So 2016 = BAD... 2017 = better.. competing again.. maybe sneaky good... 2018.. competing for division..

so.. right now after the Miller/Simmons trade, I think the Braves can obtain that goal.. Money and talent are in the system.. so I am not trading Julio/Freeman away for pieces too far away from the Majors that could set those dates back any.. Aybar/Nick are expendable.. use them as place holders or trade them for whatever..
 
The reports were we were looking for a RH hitting CF in the beginning. IMO we just couldn't pass up the deal, so we got Ender back knowing there were teams we talked to earlier when shopping Maybin, and we have a plan to circle back to one of them with an asset more attractive than Maybin. I think the offseason is still very much in the infancy stage, and we love to play the flip game.

So he doesn't fit just because he's LH?

Bourn doesn't matter; he was added solely to take on money so we could unload CJ. And Mallex has potential, but there is also significant risk, and the Braves should not at this point depend on him when we suddenly have a good young major league CF.

I guess I just don't understand what need people think we would solve by trading Inciarte that makes up for losing the need of a good young CF. They are not easy to find, and we suddenly have one. So I wouldn't rule out flipping Inciarte, but I absolutely wouldn't do it just because.

I get that a guy like Soler could potentially add a middle-of-the-order bat, but I think people are too focused on that as a huge need. It's more important that we have quality players all over the field, and Inciarte is that. Soler might never be more valuable than Inciarte is right now.
 
IF we can do Teheran+Inciarte or something like that for Baez and Soler, then I would probably do it for the upside alone. Our lineup would be relatively solidified in that case.

But, I LOVE what Inciarte brings to the table and would hate to lose him.
 
So he doesn't fit just because he's LH?

Bourn doesn't matter; he was added solely to take on money so we could unload CJ. And Mallex has potential, but there is also significant risk, and the Braves should not at this point depend on him when we suddenly have a good young major league CF.

I guess I just don't understand what need people think we would solve by trading Inciarte that makes up for losing the need of a good young CF. They are not easy to find, and we suddenly have one. So I wouldn't rule out flipping Inciarte, but I absolutely wouldn't do it just because.

I get that a guy like Soler could potentially add a middle-of-the-order bat, but I think people are too focused on that as a huge need. It's more important that we have quality players all over the field, and Inciarte is that. Soler might never be more valuable than Inciarte is right now.

You never trade a player just because. I assumed that goes without saying. Your last line is part of it. Will Ender ever have more value than he has right now? Is his Defense going to get better? Will he develop power? Will his OBP get above his average of .330? So if you're rebuilding why would you not look at trading a player who is at his peak value and in demand when you have other holes?
 
Julie DiCaro, Cubs beat writer, says Cubs are internally discussion if Inciarte is worth what Braves are asking. She says it would be Soler plus. Sorry don't know how to link to Twitter.
 
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